# Democrats need to be more realistic about their candidates **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 22, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444 "2017-02-22T04:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/61 "2017-02-23T12:02:47Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > it isn’t “bullshit.” that you think it is tells all. Heh did you read anything beyond that? Or had you already made up your mind? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/62 "2017-02-23T12:31:37Z")
There was a rock star fervor around Obama and an exaggeration of Hillary’s qualifications, but it’s difficult to take the OP seriously when Trump supporters call him “God-Emperor” and “Daddy” and the Trump subreddit reads like a 370k member cult. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/63 "2017-02-23T13:48:36Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Do you know how many horrible things I’ve heard said about liberals over the last 8 years? How many times I’ve been told that I hate America? Did it persuade you to vote Republican? If some Republican says to Hillary supporters “maybe you don’t hate America, but you are ok with being on the same team as those who do”, is that going to make them think twice about voting for her? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/64 "2017-02-23T14:54:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did it persuade you to vote Republican? > > If some Republican says to Hillary supporters “maybe you don’t hate America, but you are ok with being on the same team as those who do”, is that going to make them think twice about voting for her? > > Regards, > Shodan Why do you assume I’m trying to get Trump people to vote Democratic? We just need all the Democrats to get involved and come out and vote and if that happens we win. I’m fighting apathy on my side, not trying to convince the inconvincible. If the election happened again right now, Hillary wins just due to increased turnout on our side. I’m not going to stop calling out what’s happening though, regardless of the chagrin it may cause Trump people. You voted for it, you own it. All of it. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/65 "2017-02-23T14:56:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s ridiculous. No it isn’t ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/66 "2017-02-23T15:22:08Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Why do you assume I’m trying to get Trump people to vote Democratic? We just need all the Democrats to get involved and come out and vote and if that happens we win. I’m fighting apathy on my side, not trying to convince the inconvincible. If the election happened again right now, Hillary wins just due to increased turnout on our side. So Hillary lost in 2016, largely due to Democratic apathy and therefore lower turn out, even though there was a lot of name-calling against Trump voters. So the answer is even more name-calling. But this time, it will work. Good luck with that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/67 "2017-02-23T15:26:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So Hillary lost in 2016, largely due to Democratic apathy and therefore lower turn out, even though there was a lot of name-calling against Trump voters. So the answer is even more name-calling. But this time, it will work. > > Good luck with that. > > Regards, > Shodan What a pathetic attempt to paraphrase my post. Sad. Are you aware that you can do more than one thing at a time? You can both call out racism/sexism/homophobia when you see it, and you can organize and encourage political involvement of others. This isn’t an either or. We will not ignore racism/sexism/homophobia no matter how much you advise it. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/68 "2017-02-23T15:28:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So Hillary lost in 2016, largely due to Democratic apathy and therefore lower turn out, even though there was a lot of name-calling against Trump voters. So the answer is even more name-calling. But this time, it will work. > > Good luck with that. > > Regards, > Shodan Name-calling isn’t necessary or helpful in exciting and motivating liberal voters, but anger and passion probably are, and name-calling will probably be a byproduct of such anger and passion. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/69 "2017-02-23T17:01:56Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > What a pathetic attempt to paraphrase my post. > > Sad. > > Are you aware that you can do more than one thing at a time? You can both call out racism/sexism/homophobia when you see it, and you can organize and encourage political involvement of others. This isn’t an either or. So you are going to do what you did in 2016 - both attempt to turn out the vote, and call the other side names. Even though Hillary lost because Democrats did not turn out for her, and the other side won. And since turnout is historically lower in mid-term elections than ones in Presidential years, and since a number of Congressional districts that went for Hillary also went with the GOP candidates for Congress, and since there are 25 Democrat-controlled seats in the Senate up for re-election vs. 8 GOP ones, this is, no doubt, a winning strategy. As mentioned, good luck with that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/70 "2017-02-23T17:11:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you are going to do what you did in 2016 - both attempt to turn out the vote, and call the other side names. Even though Hillary lost because Democrats did not turn out for her, and the other side won. And since turnout is historically lower in mid-term elections than ones in Presidential years, and since a number of Congressional districts that went for Hillary also went with the GOP candidates for Congress, and since there are 25 Democrat-controlled seats in the Senate up for re-election vs. 8 GOP ones, this is, no doubt, a winning strategy. As mentioned, good luck with that. > > Regards, > Shodan You have a better idea? Getting out the vote and calling bullshit on the GOP’s shenanigans is all I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/71 "2017-02-23T17:17:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you are going to do what you did in 2016 - both attempt to turn out the vote, and call the other side names. Even though Hillary lost because Democrats did not turn out for her, and the other side won. And since turnout is historically lower in mid-term elections than ones in Presidential years, and since a number of Congressional districts that went for Hillary also went with the GOP candidates for Congress, and since there are 25 Democrat-controlled seats in the Senate up for re-election vs. 8 GOP ones, this is, no doubt, a winning strategy. As mentioned, good luck with that. > > Regards, > Shodan Why are conservatives such snowflakes. They can dish it out but sure as hell can’t take it. Toughen the hell up. Liberals are insulted constantly from your side. What’s good for the goose and all. Don’t expect it to stop. If Republicans do things that are sexist/racist/homophobic it will be called out. Every time. Mid term elections tend to go to the party not in power. Especially when the incumbent is very unpopular, as Trump is. So go ahead and be overconfident. That helps us too. You might want to check with your reps that are running and hiding from their constituents right now. They don’t seem to share your confidence or they wouldn’t be afraid of doing a town hall in their home districts. Their own voters are terrifying them right now. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/72 "2017-02-23T18:29:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So Hillary lost in 2016, largely due to Democratic apathy and therefore lower turn out, even though there was a lot of name-calling against Trump voters. So the answer is even more name-calling. But this time, it will work. > > Good luck with that. Because it was Hillary Clinton being so offensive in so many public statements, while Trump took the high road. Riiiiiight. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/73 "2017-02-23T18:33:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Barack Obama isn’t really one of us. Not in the normal way, anyway. > … you want to know what it is? The appeal, the pull, the ethereal and magical thing that seems to enthrall millions of people from all over the world … Many spiritually advanced people I know (not coweringly religious, mind you, but deeply spiritual) identify Obama as a Lightworker, that rare kind of attuned being who has the ability to lead us not merely to new foreign policies or health care plans or whatnot, but who can actually help usher in a new way of being on the planet, of relating and connecting and engaging with this bizarre earthly experiment. These kinds of people actually help us evolve. They are philosophers and peacemakers of a very high order, and they speak not just to reason or emotion, but to the soul. Republicans generally reserve such language for when they are talking about Jesus…or Ronald Reagan. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/74 "2017-02-23T18:41:56Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Did you read that she voted FOR the Iraq war, not against it? There really isn’t any nuance there. When the chips were down, she said ‘go for it’. Hedging her bets with speeches is meaningless when she wasn’t willing to back up flowery language with the actual power that she wielded by voting against that disaster. No one denies she voted yes. She had reasons for voting yes that many can, and do, disagree with. The part that requires nuance is when people want to draw the conclusion that because she voted yes she must be an unrepentant war-hawk, who flip-flopped later for political expediency. She has been completely consistent and honest with her point of view, which is what the speech illustrates. Anyone can disagree with her decision, but to use it as an example of dishonestly is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/75 "2017-02-23T19:09:09Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > No one denies she voted yes. She had reasons for voting yes that many can, and do, disagree with. > > The part that requires nuance is when people want to draw the conclusion that because she voted yes she must be an unrepentant war-hawk, who flip-flopped later for political expediency. She has been completely consistent and honest with her point of view, which is what the speech illustrates. yet, point out that some people had reasons to vote for Iridescent Cheese Wheel that had nothing to do with bigotry (or being comfortable with bigotry) and all you get back is “nuh uh! they’re racist misogynists and we need to scream at them relentlessly!” And at least someone out there agrees with me: > **[Opinion | Trump Voters Are Not the Enemy (Published 2017)](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/opinion/even-if-trump-is-the-enemy-his-voters-arent.html)** > > Don’t adopt Trump’s trick of “otherizing” people, even Trump supporters. > [@Nicholas Kristof](#): > > First, stereotyping a huge slice of America as misogynist bigots is unfair and impairs understanding. Hundreds of thousands of those Trump supporters had voted for Barack Obama. Many are themselves black, Latino or Muslim. Are they all bigots? > > Second, demonizing Trump voters feeds the dysfunction of our political system. **One can be passionate about one’s cause, and fight for it, without contributing to political paralysis that risks making our country ungovernable.** (bolding mine) this is what I’ve been trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/76 "2017-02-23T19:24:19Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In Hillary’s case, they simply assumed that their candidate would coast easily to victory because they were blind to her massive flaws. > . “Massive flaws” being the crap that Russian propagandists made up or exaggerated and that the Right and Bernie Bros gleefully spread. :dubious: Yes, She had flaws, the biggest of which isnt 1/10 the size of Trumps smallest flaw. “She got paid big bux to give speeches to walls Street and Big Banks”. **vs** Putting Big Bankers and Wall Street billionaires in charge of the government, filling the cabinet with them.😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/77 "2017-02-23T19:26:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Odd how I don’t remember even one poster here who was over the moon about Hillary. > > Regardless, the fact was then and still remains that she would have been a far better President, warts and all, than Herr Man-Baby. Yes. She wasnt great but compared to Trump? 1000% better. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/78 "2017-02-23T19:56:07Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Did you read that she voted FOR the Iraq war, not against it? There really isn’t any nuance there. When the chips were down, she said ‘go for it’. Hedging her bets with speeches is meaningless when she wasn’t willing to back up flowery language with the actual power that she wielded by voting against that disaster. So did most of Congress including many Democrats. You seem to forget this was a War started by a **GOP** president for the benefit of his **GOP** cronies, a President who\* lied to congress \*about the dangers. And you seem to forget that Trump was also in favor of the War. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/79 "2017-02-23T20:14:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > There’s one difference I always note between reading conservative and liberal sources on politics, and it was true even before Donald Trump brought a tidal wave of weirdness into last year’s campaign. Republican writers, describing a candidate like Mitt Romney or John McCain are able to acknowledge that he has flaws. Democratic writers, and the other hand lean towards saying [things like this](http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/morford/article/Is-Obama-an-enlightened-being-Spiritual-wise-2544395.php): > > Barack Obama isn’t really one of us. Not in the normal way, anyway. > … you want to know what it is? The appeal, the pull, the ethereal and magical thing that seems to enthrall millions of people from all over the world … Many spiritually advanced people I know (not coweringly religious, mind you, but deeply spiritual) identify Obama as a Lightworker, that rare kind of attuned being who has the ability to lead us not merely to new foreign policies or health care plans or whatnot, but who can actually help usher in a new way of being on the planet, of relating and connecting and engaging with this bizarre earthly experiment. These kinds of people actually help us evolve. They are philosophers and peacemakers of a very high order, and they speak not just to reason or emotion, but to the soul. I find this OP to be representative of much right-wing thought about us left-of-center types: find one or two of the most ridiculous examples of left-of-center thought that they can find, claim they’re typical rather than a bizarre exception, and whack that straw man to pieces, claiming that they’ve demolished liberalism _in toto_. Of course, even that’s a notch above another frequent wingnut ploy: assume that liberals are for whatever wingnuts are against. (E.g. since wingnuts are anti-Islam, claim liberals are pro-Islam in all of its manifestations; since wingnuts are against taxing and non-defense, non-police government spending on general principles, claim that liberals simply want to tax and spend more, period.) It’s an even easier straw man to demolish, and it saves the trouble of having to come up with examples at all. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444/80 "2017-02-23T21:15:48Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Not everyone who voted for Trump is sexist/racist/homophobic, however, everyone that voted for Trump is ok with being on the same team as those who are sexist/racist/homophobic. Almost everyone that falls into these groups became aligned on the Trump side, such as the KKK and white nationalist groups, so if you stayed on that side in light of this, then you gave your tacit acceptance of these things. We are judged by the company we keep. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The part that requires nuance is when people want to draw the conclusion that because she voted yes she must be an unrepentant war-hawk, who flip-flopped later for political expediency. She has been completely consistent and honest with her point of view, which is what the speech illustrates. One thing that I find absolutely fascinating is that there is strong support among Democrats for the idea, of which Airbeck’s quote below is a good example, that anyone voting for Trump is guilt of being sexist/racist/homophobic, or at least of being guilty by association for being on the same team as people who are. I don’t see any of the pro-Democrat people opposing that viewpoint here, for example. Yet at the same time they seem to feel that Hillary (and other Democrats’) vote to enable the Iraq war, which allowed the war to actually take place, doesn’t make them at all responsible for the war. I don’t see how you can actually reconcile the two positions, especially since her pro-Iraq vote was a direct vote for war, while someone could easily vote for Trump for reasons that aren’t sexist/racist/homophobic. Do you really think that you can use ‘guilt by association’ to keep people from voting for the other party (and to avoid them staying at home in disgust), but at the same time disavow ‘guilt by directly voting for’ for your candidates? Seriously, the whole concept is just a muddled mess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-be-more-realistic-about-their-candidates/780444.md?page=5)