# Democrats need to get ahead of the Syrian refugee issue and triangulate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 18, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865 "2015-11-18T03:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/201 "2015-12-23T18:09:38Z")
Mosul is in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/202 "2015-12-23T18:10:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Mosul is in Iraq. Sure, this week. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/203 "2015-12-23T18:28:58Z")
Well played. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/204 "2015-12-23T18:50:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Did anyone notice that Hillary [proposed pretty much my exact idea at the debate](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/12/hillary_clinton_has_a_smart_response_for_defeating_islamic_terrorism.2.html) last weekend? A few weeks back, I went around and pushed the idea not only here and Facebook but Daily Kos and a number of other comments sections. I never saw any columnist or pundit propose the idea, so now I’m seriously wondering if someone in her campaign saw my proposal and sent it up the pipeline. How cool would that be? At the very least, it shows I think like they do in Clintonland, which many progressives would consider anathema but I am all for: No, it wasn’t your exact idea, and let me illustrate why. Read [this story](http://www.ibtimes.com/syrian-refugee-family-adjusts-life-michigan-after-arduous-journey-aleppo-bloomfield-2208250). I’m pretty sure Clinton’s reaction to that story would be, “Our refugee system should not break up families.” I’m pretty sure that your policy would mean that only two people on the couch plus the baby would be in the picture. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/205 "2015-12-23T22:44:22Z")
And her policy might mean that _none_ of the people would be in the picture, because none of them would be let in if she’s not willing to break up families. So her proposal might actually be more stringent than mine when it comes to women and children who are not windows or orphans. And, yes, less stringent concerning elderly men. But to dismiss it as utterly unlike what I proposed is pretty silly. The underlying logic of keeping out young or middle-aged men, as a political countering play against Republican proposals to keep all Syrian refugees out, is the main point here. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/206 "2015-12-27T10:39:00Z")
[Linked](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2015/11/17/senior-obama-officials-have-warned-of-challenges-in-screening-refugees-from-syria/) in the WaPo’s annotated debate transcript: > [@](#): > > “I don’t, obviously, put it past the likes of ISIL to infiltrate operatives among these refugees, so that’s a huge concern of ours,” Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said at a security industry conference in September, using another name for the Islamic State.[…] > > FBI Director James Comey added in congressional testimony last month that “a number of people who were of serious concern” slipped through the screening of Iraq War refugees, including two arrested on terrorism-related charges. “There’s no doubt that was the product of a less than excellent vetting,” he said. > > Syrian refugees will be even harder to check because, unlike in Iraq, U.S. soldiers have not been on the ground collecting information on the local population. “If we don’t know much about somebody, there won’t be anything in our data,” he said.[…] > > [O]ne of the senior administration officials at Tuesday’s briefing acknowledged the limitations inherent in screening refugees from Syria, where it’s very difficult to determine something as basic as an applicant’s criminal history. > > “We do the best with what we have,” the official said. “We talk to people about what their criminal histories are, and we hear about that. That’s pretty much where we are.” Sure looks to me like it’s pretty hard to dismiss the concerns as the exclusive province of idiots or bigots. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/207 "2015-12-27T11:09:07Z")
It’s called bait and switch. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/208 "2015-12-27T11:42:24Z")
I’m familiar with bait and switch in advertising, but I’m not sure how the analogy works here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/209 "2015-12-27T12:21:34Z")
We advertise this thorough vetting process, but actually sell you an expensive, long, bureaucratic process that doesn’t really accomplish much. But that’s how government works. Is there a problem? Spend more money on it. Is there a security concern? Make the bureaucratic process longer. Then act as if things are working whether they are or not. And if the media gets wind that things aren’t working, spend more money and make the bureaucratic process even longer. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/210 "2015-12-27T13:41:17Z")
Not going down that road with you. You, as a conservative, think the answer is less government. I as a progressive believe the answer is to stay on top of government to make it work as effectively and as efficiently as possible. Besides, the people I quoted are senior members of government and are not acting as though the process works just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/211 "2015-12-27T15:36:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We advertise this thorough vetting process, but actually sell you an expensive, long, bureaucratic process that doesn’t really accomplish much. > > But that’s how government works. Is there a problem? Spend more money on it. Is there a security concern? Make the bureaucratic process longer. Then act as if things are working whether they are or not. And if the media gets wind that things aren’t working, spend more money and make the bureaucratic process even longer. What would the alternative be? Outsource to a private, for-profit corporation, which has a huge incentive to cut expensive corners in order to make the process cheaper, and zero liability if something goes wrong? Declare the whole thing impossible, and let other countries pick up the burden? I agree that bureaucracy fairly easily spins out of control, but I think it’s a human thing rather than a government thing. I’m curious as to what you think would be a better process. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/212 "2015-12-28T00:51:38Z")
There’s no alternative to the current vetting process, just don’t claim that it’s effective just because it’s long and arduous. It’s a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/213 "2015-12-28T05:11:27Z")
I just realized today that nearly every **adaher** commentary on government breaks down to the punchline from the joke about the old married couple that complains about everything: “The food in the restaurant is terrible. And the portions are too small!” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/214 "2015-12-28T05:29:05Z")
Nah. We just have to acknowledge the fact that government tends to do things rather poorly. I don’t think many Americans take the vetting assurances seriously, and frankly I think that by making such a promise the President actually hurt his case. Of course, he won’t take any responsibility at all should someone slip through his vaunted vetting process and mount an attack. “I was as angered as you were to find out that some bureaucrat failed!” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/215 "2015-12-28T05:48:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s no alternative to the current vetting process, just don’t claim that it’s effective just because it’s long and arduous. It’s a lie. I agree with that. And I call liberals to account when I see dishonesty, as anyone here paying attention can surely attest. Now, how about the Laffer Curve, that has been shown again and again not to work? The interpretation of the Second Amendment that ignores “a well regulated militia”? The anti-intellectual insistence on privileging local school boards, no matter how ignorant the backwater, over national standards? The reflexive resistance to government oversight of industry, even to guarantee workers’ health and safety, to protect the environment, or to prevent economic collapse? Speaking of economic policy, how about the gold standard? Cutting deficits during recessions? Conservatives have more lies and bad ideas than I have time to count. Government is not the problem; misdirected or inefficient government is. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/216 "2015-12-28T05:53:52Z")
I agree with you on much of that. I’ve never accepted supply side, I think the gold standard is outmoded. I also agree that the Republican Party is pretty much the know nothing party and the Democratic Party the intellectual party at this point. However, Democrats have a big blind spot when it comes to government and part of that is that they are too close to the unions. It’s hard to run an effective government when people can’t be fired for poor performance and when promotion has more to do with seniority than merit. I recognize that past corruption is why we have these rules, but neither option results in an effective government. The government can’t vet these refugees effectively, and our own government has already said as much. It’s our political leaders who haven’t gotten the memo, or else they are just plain lying, which seems more likely. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/217 "2015-12-28T09:55:59Z")
Much of the blame for that IMO lies at the feet of the kind of voters and activists we have heard from in this thread. Members of the base acting on their ideology rather than on rational, hardheaded analysis of the world around them. Most politicians in either party cannot afford to get the base against them, especially in this era when going off the reservation can get you excoriated on social media. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/218 "2015-12-28T10:03:49Z")
True, but not everything is really a base issue. Republican voters have no particular allegiance to supply side theory. That’s a 1980s era elite idea. Most people also support reasonable regulation of economic activity. The big problem is that there is a large gap between the donor class and the base. The Democrats have that gap as well, but it’s more about priorities than issues. On some issues I side with the donor class, on others the base, but we need more open debate on party direction, rather than what we have now, base candidates feeding us what we want to hear while the establishment candidates feed us a little less while planning not to do anything we want once they get power. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/219 "2015-12-28T10:09:11Z")
My main reference there was to the Democratic base and the issue of refugees as per this thread. But Republicans will never support even the most moderate gun regulations, and they get burned if they flirt with any kind of immigration plan that is not completely xenophobic. A lot of them can’t even support routine increases in the debt ceiling or any sort of compromise in government spending on social programs and such without getting in big hot water. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/220 "2015-12-28T10:16:28Z")
Well, those are all different things. The gun issue is one in which the problem is that Democrats actually would like to disarm civilians to some extent, so you fight every step along that path on the theory that even if you lose on the reasonable regulations, the fight will be so exhausting that they won’t have the will to fight for further restrictions. The pro-choice organizations use the same strategy to fight any and all abortion restrictions. On immigration, most Americans want our laws enforced and for immigration levels to go down, not up. Democrats have shot themselves in the foot on this issue by attacking outsourcing, yet any American can do basic math and realize that an outsourced job is exactly the same as hiring immigrants to replace American workers from the perspective of a worker. Republicans should avoid xenophobic rhetoric, but they are essentially right that we could do a better job of enforcing our laws. We don’t have enough resources to deport everyone, but we sure have enough to deport a lot more than we are. The Obama administration actually stopped successful programs because they worked too well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=12)