# Democrats need to get ahead of the Syrian refugee issue and triangulate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 18, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865 "2015-11-18T03:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/301 "2016-06-14T13:27:59Z")
It’s always entertaining to hear people suggest that you have to go back to the Crusades to find examples of Christian groups committing atrocities. How about [modern](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army) [Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014)? Lots of horrible acts committed or attempted in the Lord’s name there, particularly to gay people. Or [Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Tbilisi_anti-homophobia_rally_protests) and [Russia](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/07/the-25-most-shocking-anti-gay-stories-from-russia-so-far/)? > [@](#): > > An anti-homophobic rally was held in Tbilisi, Georgia, on May 17, 2013, the International Day Against Homophobia. The gay rights activists holding the rally were met by thousands of protestors opposing homosexuality, who were allowed to break through a police cordon and violently pursued them, beating and throwing stones at them. Led by Georgian Orthodox priests at the instigation of the head of the GOC, no less. You want stonings? You got stonings. Here’s another one: > [@](#): > > In May last year, a gay man from the southern Russian city of Volgograd who was tortured to death in an apparent hate crime, was sexually assaulted with beer bottles, and had his skull “smashed with a stone.” The same site also points out that 51% of Russians surveyed “would not under any circumstance want a gay neighbour or work colleague”. But I’m sure none of them were Christians. Or take sugar on their porridge. > [@adaher](#): > > I know why the second group lies Kindly dispose of your empty well poison bottles in the appropriate receptable when you’re finished. > [@](#): > > it’s because they think if they do that the radical Muslims who aren’t yet violent might be assuaged, but it will never work. I’m not a person who “lies” about this, but I’ll explain why I, personally, push back against kneejerk Islamophobia where I find it: 1. I hold no illusions about influencing the radical fringe (and I’m certainly not “assuaging” anyone). It’s the hundreds of millions of non-radical Muslims who can be influenced - or are already _on the right side of the debate_ - that I’m concerned about. Every time someone declares that all Muslims are either terrorists or support terror (and if they say they don’t support terror they’re lying because “taqiyya!”) it tells those liberal and moderate Muslims - of whom there are many - that no matter how “liberal” or “enlightened” or “Western” or “assimilated” they are, they will always be treated as an enemy. And not only does this behavior facilitate the radicalization process for those who may be on the fence, it alienates those within Islam who would be our greatest allies in dragging the unenlightened amongst them into the 21st century. It’s entirely counterproductive to mitigating the problem. 2. The “us vs them” narrative also facilitates more violence _against innocent Muslims_. When two extremist wannabes murdered a British soldier in London a few years old, the months afterwards saw over **160** acts of anti-Muslim violence or vandalism by right-wing assholes (hello, EDL) as “reprisals” against people who had nothing to do with the attack. Right-wing assholes being the cowards they are, many of these attacks were on Muslim women who were doing nothing more than shopping and minding their children. The aftermath of 9/11 similarly saw not jsut Muslims but various other vaguely-Middle-Eastern-looking people subjected to assaults and harassment. This is the fallout of the “We must oppose Islam!” mentality, and it’s this sort of bullshit I’m also trying to prevent. Yes, radical Islam is a horrible violent thing, and even the non-violent but conservative forms of the religion can be and often are guilty of great injustices and injuries. In this, however, they have more in common with religious extremists of all ilks than with their liberal brethren in Islam. And if at the moment radical Islam is the source of a significant threat to decent, freedom-loving people everywhere - and it is - it seems disingenuous to say that this is intrinsic to Islam when Christianity and other religions are not far ahead (and, even then, largely due to secular efforts). Have a little fucking perspective. > [@](#): > > So it’s time to stop the whitewashing. I can’t do any whitewashing - somebody’s borrowed my broad brush to tar something and it’s all gummed up now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/302 "2016-06-14T13:32:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > A tiny minority plan overseas terrorist attacks. However, a rather large minority hold extremist views about women, gays, apostates, Jews, and Western values in general. It’s not safe to import large numbers of such people. This would be true even if none of them were violent. Significant (but probably smaller) minorities in America hold these views as well. I’m fine with vetting prospective immigrants, including questioning them on these views. > [@](#): > > This is true, but we don’t do that by importing a huge number of them with 7th century mentalities and letting them form ethno-religious enclaves as they do in Europe where they can reinforce each other’s backwardness and become hotbeds of extremism and violence. > > I’m not against bringing Syrian refugees into this country, but vetting needs to be better and it needs to cover their personal views on values we consider important. Then we’re not in particularly significant disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/303 "2016-06-14T13:37:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s not stupid, it’s actually entirely logical. > > YOu walk down a street every night. One person tells you, “That street is perfectly safe, muggings are extremely rare, only a tiny minority of people on that block are muggers.” > > Another person tells you, “Don’t walk down that street! Everyone who lives there is a rapist or murderer!” > > So you get mugged. Repeatedly. Who would you feel came closer to telling you the truth? I’ll bear that in mind for the next gun debate. One person says “That street is perfectly safe!”. People who shoot other people are a tiny minority! Gun violence is extremely rare! Another person tells you, “Don’t walk down that street! Everyone who lives there is a gun owner!” So you get shot. Repeatedly. Who would you feel came closer to telling you the truth? > [@adaher](#): > > A tiny minority plan overseas terrorist attacks. However, a rather large minority hold extremist views about women, gays, apostates, Jews, and Western values in general. It’s not safe to import large numbers of such people. This would be true even if none of them were violent. The same holds true of Christians, you know. > [@](#): > > This is true, but we don’t do that by importing a huge number of them with 7th century mentalities and letting them form ethno-religious enclaves as they do in Europe where they can reinforce each other’s backwardness and become hotbeds of extremism and violence. I take it you’ve never been to Oklahoma. Plenty of ethno-religious enclaves in the US already - but we ignore them because they’re not Muslim. > [@](#): > > I’m not against bringing Syrian refugees into this country, but vetting needs to be better and it needs to cover their personal views on values we consider important. I’m betting that “better” in this case means “I don’t know what we have but it will never be good enough for my purposes”. Unless you have specific improvements you’d like to suggest to the current system? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/304 "2016-06-14T13:43:53Z")
What prevents incidents like Cologne or the proliferation of extremist mosques growing terror cells in Western countries. As has been pointed out, that is not a problem here. Let’s not let it ever become one. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/305 "2016-06-14T13:45:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s always entertaining to hear people suggest that you have to go back to the Crusades to find examples of Christian groups committing atrocities. > > How about [modern](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army) [Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014)? Lots of horrible acts committed or attempted in the Lord’s name there, particularly to gay people. > > Or [Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Tbilisi_anti-homophobia_rally_protests) and [Russia](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/07/the-25-most-shocking-anti-gay-stories-from-russia-so-far/)? > Led by Georgian Orthodox priests at the instigation of the head of the GOC, no less. [compared](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/gay-rights/) [to…](http://ilga.org/downloads/03_ILGA_WorldMap_ENGLISH_Overview_May2016.pdf) no matter how you spin it, the problem is far worse in the Islam world. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/306 "2016-06-14T14:00:12Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > [compared](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/gay-rights/) [to…](http://ilga.org/downloads/03_ILGA_WorldMap_ENGLISH_Overview_May2016.pdf) > > no matter how you spin it, the problem is far worse in the Islam world. It is. RIGHT NOW it is. I’m not denying it. But denying that Christians don’t do anything like that - and weren’t doing even more of them within living memory - is a pretty heavy spin too. On a positive note, while I was looking up examples I found a couple of articles suggesting that Jamaica - once considered one of the most homophobic countries in the world - has made major inroads into dealing with homophobic attitudes in recent years. Early research suggests that this is in part because religion is such a minor driver of anti-gay views in Jamaica, and that instead they have been driven by dance hall culture (which is more easily changed) and traditional views of masculinity (less easily changed, but a lot easier than religion). Not that it’s a gay paradise yet, but the needle is definitely moving in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/307 "2016-06-14T14:04:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What prevents incidents like Cologne or the proliferation of extremist mosques growing terror cells in Western countries. As has been pointed out, that is not a problem here. [Damn those extremist terror cells!](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/308 "2016-06-14T14:13:22Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Whenever I read a recommendation to Democrats from one of our Usual Wingnut Suspects, I resolve to do 100% the opposite. > > Thanks for your concern, guys! Do you really think you’re fooling anyone? \*\*Adaher \*\*has made some dubious “recommendations” that made me roll my eyes, but s/he’s being pretty straight here. If one side acknowledges the problem with Islam and proposes fascist solutions, and the other side pretends there \*is \*no problem, that is an unnecessary unforced error on our side that endangers our country. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bullshit. It’s all interpretation – Muslims who interpret their text in a peaceful way are no more or less correct then those who interpret it in a hateful way. > > There’s no perfect or correct understanding of a religious text. It always requires interpretation. > > Me too, but I do the same when Christians say that abortion bombers, or other Christian extremists, say the same kind of thing. Any religious text can be interpreted in any way the followers please. No. There are some vague portions of scripture, but others that are not vague in the least. You do point out a problem with Judeo-Christianity, though: the moderates and liberals are mostly in control, but _their interpretations are bullshit_. They can never win a debate over theology with a fundamentalist (this is particularly true for Jews, since they can’t argue that the New Testament trumps the Old). For example, try telling me the different ways to interpret the following Bible verses. Please, I’m really curious! Deuteronomy in particular has commandments that seem designed to have no ambiguity, no wiggle room. From Deut. 13: > [@](#): > > 6If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. Hmmm…I’m not totally sure, but I \*think \*that might be saying that if a friend or family member worships a different god or gods, you have to personally kill them, backed up by a mob if possible. Deut. 21 has a couple of peachy sections: > [@](#): > > 10When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her. > [@](#): > > 18If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. Just not seeing any possible metaphor here. > [@](#): > > 13If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19They shall fine him a hundred shekelsb of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. > > 20If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you. Nice. But maybe my favorite is these rules, which taken together establish quite nicely the economics of marriage according to Yahweh and Moses: > [@](#): > > 23If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you. > > 25But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her. > > 28If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29he shall pay her father fifty shekelsc of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. So apparently there’s a loophole by which any man with fifty shekels of silver to his name can have his pick of women to marry, as long as he gets to them before anyone else does. :rolleyes: Now, it’s true that basically no one lives by these rules any more (though a few ultra-Orthodox Jews and hardcore Christians probably wish they could). But that’s not because there’s any other reasonable interpretation of the text than the very clear, straightforward meaning. It’s simply because modern secular society can’t abide this kind of abomination, so Judeo-Christians pretend they still consider the whole Bible a holy text written by God, and try their best to ignore the really awful parts. But Muslims haven’t gotten that far. Their texts (the Quran and the hadith) have, for instance, [more abundant and less ambiguous denunciations of homosexuality](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Homosexuality) than are found in the Bible. So the best you’re going to get from a devout Muslim is going to be an attitude roughly akin to the Westboro Baptists. And the worst…well, we just saw it in Orlando. Maybe one day that spectrum will shift, and the majority of Muslims will be as disingenuous or willfully blind about their religious doctrines as most Judeo-Christians are now. But I don’t expect that to be in my lifetime, and in the meanwhile, I’d rather they sort it out among themselves rather than as my neighbors. And let’s not forget we’re talking about electoral politics. At some point, if this shit continues, we’re going to have to either give a certain amount of ground on the Democratic side without going fully into \*Kristallnacht \*mode, or stand firm on (dubious) principle, and be swept away by a fascist electoral tide. What good would that do for anyone? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/309 "2016-06-14T14:22:26Z")
Nitpick (?): I think Deuteronomy 13 is saying to kill someone who tries to convert you not anyone who worships another god. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/310 "2016-06-14T14:26:22Z")
Fair enough. But then there’s Deut. 20: > [@](#): > > 16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/311 "2016-06-14T14:28:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No. There are some vague portions of scripture, but others that are not vague in the least. You do point out a problem with Judeo-Christianity, though: the moderates and liberals are mostly in control, but _their interpretations are bullshit_. They can never win a debate over theology with a fundamentalist (this is particularly true for Jews, since they can’t argue that the New Testament trumps the Old). For example, try telling me the different ways to interpret the following Bible verses. Please, I’m really curious! Deuteronomy in particular has commandments that seem designed to have no ambiguity, no wiggle room. I won’t go into it case by case, but there are later portions, especially in the New Testament, that _directly contradict_ these instructions to execute people. And there are other portions that contradict those contradictions. Whether they understand that they are interpreting the text or not, _every believer_ is doing so. There is no way to literally interpret text when parts of it contradict other parts. > [@](#): > > Now, it’s true that basically no one lives by these rules any more (though a few ultra-Orthodox Jews and hardcore Christians probably wish they could). But that’s not because there’s any other reasonable interpretation of the text than the very clear, straightforward meaning. It’s simply because modern secular society can’t abide this kind of abomination, so Judeo-Christians pretend they still consider the whole Bible a holy text written by God, and try their best to ignore the really awful parts. I partially agree – society’s advancement has pulled along most Jews and Christians. But they’re still interpreting, in my view, and no better or no worse than others. > [@](#): > > But Muslims haven’t gotten that far. Their texts (the Quran and the hadith) have, for instance, [more abundant and less ambiguous denunciations of homosexuality](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Homosexuality) than are found in the Bible. So the best you’re going to get from a devout Muslim is going to be an attitude roughly akin to the Westboro Baptists. And the worst…well, we just saw it in Orlando. Maybe one day that spectrum will shift, and the majority of Muslims will be as disingenuous or willfully blind about their religious doctrines as most Judeo-Christians are now. But I don’t expect that to be in my lifetime, and in the meanwhile, I’d rather they sort it out among themselves rather than as my neighbors. They’re already your neighbors, if perhaps not adjacent to your abode. But interpretations do indeed vary widely within Islam, and just like Christian and Jewish texts there are portions of the Quran and hadith that contradict other portions. > [@](#): > > And let’s not forget we’re talking about electoral politics. At some point, if this shit continues, we’re going to have to either give a certain amount of ground on the Democratic side without going fully into \*Kristallnacht \*mode, or stand firm on (dubious) principle, and be swept away by a fascist electoral tide. What good would that do for anyone? I’m not sure it’s (terrorist attacks around the world) getting worse. Whether it is or not, I think the best way to keep it from getting worse (or reverse the trend) is to make sure that the Muslims not directly conducting or materially supporting terrorist operations are not our enemies. And this means using nuanced language. As far as domestic politics, the nuance is important to prevent Kristallnacht-ish things from happening in the future. It doesn’t mean that Muslims can’t be criticized – just that broad-brush statements are avoided; criticism can be pointed but must be specific; and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/312 "2016-06-14T14:34:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not against bringing Syrian refugees into this country, but vetting needs to be better and it needs to cover their personal views on values we consider important. A process that takes-- at minimum 18 months-- [and looks like this](https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015/11/20/infographic-screening-process-refugee-entry-united-states) isn’t good enough for you? Syrian refugees can expect a process that takes two to three years, or even more. Ninety-nine percent of refugees worldwide don’t even make it past the initial interviews. Then they get screened by NCCIC, FBI, Homeland Security and State. The get fingerprinted, eyeball scanned, medically screened, culturally oriented, they get screened by border patrol and TSA. Again, all of this is spread out over a two (or more) year period. Then upon arrival, most (and perhaps even all) of them get partnered with a federally-approved organization for their first six months to help them assimilate and get accustomed to our country. If terror cells wanted to get into the United States, I can think of much more efficient ways than going through the refugee resettlement process. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/313 "2016-06-14T14:40:29Z")
But here’s where I actually agree in part with my debate opponents. ISIS would love nothing more than to get someone through the refugee process, because it would so deeply undermine the American government and its assurances to its people. Not to mention that they don’t want refugees to peacefully settle here and be integrated into society. And how do you square your ringing endorsement of the vetting process, including namechecking the FBI, with the fact that the FBI Director testified before Congress that its efficacy was highly suspect? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/314 "2016-06-14T15:06:43Z")
Here’s the thing: As a gay person, I know that most Muslims, worldwide, are not terribly sympathetic to my situation. Many would actively harm me, and many will still have the attitude that gay sex is fine on the down low, but gay identity is an abomination. Muslims in North America often hold those same attitudes. But you know what? Christians are exactly the same. Sure, there’s a handful of progressive churches that have embraced the gay community, and that number is growing. But it’s still a drop in the bucket. The reason I can’t hold hands with my husband on the street anywhere except a few gay neighbourhoods isn’t Muslims, it’s Christians. The reason I grew up ashamed of who I am, the reason I didn’t date as a teenager, the reason it was difficult to come out to my family—all because of Christians. The reason my more distant relatives are STILL saying hateful things about gay people? The church. So you’ll excuse me if I don’t worry too much about Muslims. People who are fleeing a war and starting a new life while learning a new language are going to be a little bit too busy to shoot me. Their conflicted bicultural children might, but then again, that cute guy from Iowa might be just as conflicted and angry and is probably better trained to use firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/315 "2016-06-14T15:47:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And how do you square your ringing endorsement of the vetting process, including namechecking the FBI, with the fact that the FBI Director testified before Congress that its efficacy was highly suspect? I don’t think you’re correctly interpreting Comey’s statements. > [@](#): > > Comey has said there are challenges and gaps to the process and that there are always risks to admitting people from conflict zones. But he also said the process is effective and has gotten more so in the past few years. [Link](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/dec/15/ted-cruz/ted-cruzs-claim-head-fbi-told-congress-they-cannot/). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/316 "2016-06-14T16:11:32Z")
Yours is the paraphrase, or characterization. How about a direct quote? [https://homeland.house.gov/press/nations-top-security-officials-concerns-on-refugee-vetting/](https://homeland.house.gov/press/nations-top-security-officials-concerns-on-refugee-vetting/) > [@](#): > > James B. Comey, Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice:“We can only query against that which we have collected. And so if someone has not made a ripple in the pond in Syria on a way that would get their identity or their interests reflected in our databases, we can query our databases until the cows come home but nothing will show up because we have no record of that person…You can only query what you have collected. And with respect to Iraqi refugees, we had far more in our databases because of our country’s work there for a decade. [The case of vetting Syrian refugees] is a different situation.” (10/21/15) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/317 "2016-06-14T16:29:56Z")
That quote doesn’t say what you think it does. Comey says there are people that we can’t find anything about in the databases. You are assuming that those people get a free pass into the country. They do not. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/318 "2016-06-14T16:59:11Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Here’s the thing: As a gay person, I know that most Muslims, worldwide, are not terribly sympathetic to my situation. Many would actively harm me, and many will still have the attitude that gay sex is fine on the down low, but gay identity is an abomination. Muslims in North America often hold those same attitudes. > > But you know what? Christians are exactly the same. Sure, there’s a handful of progressive churches that have embraced the gay community, and that number is growing. But it’s still a drop in the bucket. The reason I can’t hold hands with my husband on the street anywhere except a few gay neighbourhoods isn’t Muslims, it’s Christians. > > The reason I grew up ashamed of who I am, the reason I didn’t date as a teenager, the reason it was difficult to come out to my family—all because of Christians. The reason my more distant relatives are STILL saying hateful things about gay people? The church. > > So you’ll excuse me if I don’t worry too much about Muslims. People who are fleeing a war and starting a new life while learning a new language are going to be a little bit too busy to shoot me. Their conflicted bicultural children might, but then again, that cute guy from Iowa might be just as conflicted and angry and is probably better trained to use firearms. I can understand where you’re coming from, but think about this; do you want 40k+ likely homophobes joining our electorate and citizenry? Aren’t they more likely to keep their mass backwards views when they enclave with each other? And aren’t their elected representatives more likely to represent that? Also, a lot of gay Muslims who flee the Muslim world feel the mirror of you, but with Islam and Christianity switched. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/319 "2016-06-14T17:16:03Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I can understand where you’re coming from, but think about this; do you want 40k+ likely homophobes joining our electorate and citizenry? Aren’t they more likely to keep their mass backwards views when they enclave with each other? And aren’t their elected representatives more likely to represent that? > > Also, a lot of gay Muslims who flee the Muslim world feel the mirror of you, but with Islam and Christianity switched. Where are the “enclaves” in the USA? I don’t give a fuck about what’s supposedly happening in Europe. Ted Cruz will offer to “save” your party with his true conservative values (after Hilary destroys The Donald). What about his[links with a homophobic preacher](http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/post_10496_b_8544540.html)? > [@](#): > > Last weekend Senator Ted Cruz, along with fellow GOP presidential candidates Mike Huckabee and Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, spoke at a conference in Des Moines headed up by a man who advocates the execution of gay people — per his interpretation of the bible — and who made his call for mass extermination once again, onstage at the event, the National Religious Liberties Conference. Pastor Kevin Swanson has said in the past that Christians should attend gay weddings and hold up signs telling the newly married gay and lesbian couples that they “should be put to death.” He was an advocate of Uganda’s infamous “Kill the Gays” bill, which he saw as a model. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/320 "2016-06-14T17:31:12Z")
For me, I’d rather deal with the lightning-striking chance of being caught in a terrorist attack than promote institutional bigotry and police-state tactics. One of my favorite quotes: [QUOTE=Benjamin Franklin] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. [/QUOTE] (Yes, I know that’s not the situation he was describing, but he also didn’t live in the 21st century and the sentiment is highly appropriate.) You can claim until you’re blue in the face that there are bogeymen out there, and that that justifies blanket discrimination, but it’s against the very philosophical basis of this country. That doesn’t mean that vigilance should be relaxed, but this kind of stuff is an appeal to kneejerk reactionism. Funny how it always seems to crop up right after a terrorist attack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=17)