# Democrats need to get ahead of the Syrian refugee issue and triangulate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 18, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865 "2015-11-18T03:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/321 "2016-06-14T17:32:00Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Where are the “enclaves” in the USA? I don’t give a fuck about what’s supposedly happening in Europe. Dearborn, Michigan is one. The U.S. is only about 1% Muslim, Dearborn is about 30%. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/322 "2016-06-14T17:36:10Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Where are the “enclaves” in the USA? I don’t give a fuck about what’s supposedly happening in Europe. > > Ted Cruz will offer to “save” your party with his true conservative values (after Hilary destroys The Donald). What about his[links with a homophobic preacher](http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/post_10496_b_8544540.html)? What assurances do the American people have that huge insular Muslim enclaves won’t happen in the US like they have in Europe? I heard about Cruz and that preacher. Good thing no candidate or major party actually proposes such views. No elected representative in Congress or governors advocate for, seek to enact, or could enact, such laws. Not the case in Muslim countries. Also, see what the Islamist demonstrators (you know the ones where they burn down embassies, hold up signs saying “freedom go to hell,” etc) in Europe think of such ideas; you wouldn’t like their views. Also, if we can attack Cruz’s preacher, does that make Obama into an anti-Semite just because Jeremiah Wright is one? In reality, both patronized their followers for votes. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/323 "2016-06-14T17:45:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So the best you’re going to get from a devout Muslim is going to be an attitude roughly akin to the Westboro Baptists. That is an unfounded statement based on opinions you’ve pulled out of your butt, and not on any kind of fact. Studies show [Muslims in America are roughly on par with Christians for being anti gay marriage](http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su), and dramatically more in favor than Christians of the Westboro Baptist flavor. > [@](#): > > And the worst…well, we just saw it in Orlando. Perhaps. Though it becomes more and more clear that religion is only one piece of the puzzle here. Or, one could just as easily say that if Christians in this country were less bigoted and homophobic, that a closeted Muslim gay man would be much less likely to break and turn to violence. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/324 "2016-06-14T17:45:54Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Where are the “enclaves” in the USA? I don’t give a fuck about what’s supposedly happening in Europe. Perhaps Dearborn, MI? You know, that notorious anti-gay city with the highest population of Arabs/Muslims outside the Middle East-- which includes many recent immigrants and refugees. That city with the hardline Moslem conservative government that has instituted Shaira law with members of the Taliban serving on the city council and as mayor? Oh wait, no Dearborn, the city with the highest population of Arabs/Muslims outside the Middle East (30,000+) which actually has an Irish Catholic Democratic mayor, a council full of primarily liberal Democrats, votes blue in presidential elections and has elected a liberal Democrat to Congress for the past 73 years. So apparently when Muslims “enclave” here, they pretty much don’t do much more than open amazing restaurants, barbecue on Sundays, go to Mosque on Fridays, make really great neighbors and vote Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/325 "2016-06-14T18:34:15Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Perhaps Dearborn, MI? You know, that notorious anti-gay city with the highest population of Arabs/Muslims outside the Middle East-- which includes many recent immigrants and refugees. That city with the hardline Moslem conservative government that has instituted Shaira law with members of the Taliban serving on the city council and as mayor? > > Oh wait, no Dearborn, the city with the highest population of Arabs/Muslims outside the Middle East (30,000+) which actually has an Irish Catholic Democratic mayor, a council full of primarily liberal Democrats, votes blue in presidential elections and has elected a liberal Democrat to Congress for the past 73 years. > > So apparently when Muslims “enclave” here, they pretty much don’t do much more than open amazing restaurants, barbecue on Sundays, go to Mosque on Fridays, make really great neighbors and vote Democrat. They used to vote Republican; I wonder if progs would’ve hated them before 2000. Point tho is that since Dearborn is the only enclave, they know it and have to accept associating with non-Muslims on a frequent basis. Not the case in many European cities. We don’t need that here. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/326 "2016-06-14T18:59:04Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > …associating with non-Muslims on a frequent basis. Not the case in many European cities. We don’t need that here. This is a statement that is complete false , channeling the falsehoods asserted by the Fox news. As you do not in fact know very much - anything really - about us in Europe, please do not repeat the falsehoods asserted on the Fox News so much mocked and refuted since December, it is an embarrasement. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/327 "2016-06-14T19:05:06Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > They used to vote Republican; I wonder if progs would’ve hated them before 2000. > > Point tho is that since Dearborn is the only enclave, they know it and have to accept associating with non-Muslims on a frequent basis. Not the case in many European cities. We don’t need that here. We don’t have that here & there’s no reason we will. Do you actually _know_ any Muslims? I do. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/328 "2016-06-14T19:54:01Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I can understand where you’re coming from, but think about this; do you want 40k+ likely homophobes joining our electorate and citizenry? Aren’t they more likely to keep their mass backwards views when they enclave with each other? And aren’t their elected representatives more likely to represent that? > > Also, a lot of gay Muslims who flee the Muslim world feel the mirror of you, but with Islam and Christianity switched. Possibly, but there’s nothing they can do that isn’t already being done by Americans whose families have been here for hundreds of years. 40,000 is a miniscule number compared to the population at large. The Lakewood Church in Houston is bigger than that, and has far more political clout. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/329 "2016-06-14T20:16:01Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Possibly, but there’s nothing they can do that isn’t already being done by Americans whose families have been here for hundreds of years. 40,000 is a miniscule number compared to the population at large. The Lakewood Church in Houston is bigger than that, and has far more political clout. What number would be too big? Would you be happy with Germany level of Syrian war refugees? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/330 "2016-06-14T21:19:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What number would be too big? Would you be happy with Germany level of Syrian war refugees? I think that works out to just under 2,000,000 people. That is a lot: somewhere between New Mexico and Nebraska. I’ve never really thought about what upper limit is acceptable. You’re forcing me to re-examine some assumptions, and I’m afraid I don’t have a good answer. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/331 "2016-06-14T21:51:33Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Point tho is that since Dearborn is the only enclave, they know it and have to accept associating with non-Muslims on a frequent basis. Not the case in many European cities. We don’t need that here. Yeeesh! Do you get all your information from Hannity and Trump? Aside from a few places in Britain that have problems derived more from the places from which they immigrated than their religion, Muslims in Europe have been assimilating as fast as the surrounding populace will let them. Rather than closing themselves up in enclaves, most of the ghetto situations have resulted from laws that made it difficult for immigrants to acquire citizenship and a combination of laws and the European equivalent of red-lining that have prevented them moving out from the locations where they first landed. By every measure but one, they have assimilated: language, national loyalty, secularization, intermarriage, etc. The only area in which they have not assimilated has been in home ownership–and that has been due to being frozen out of the market. One study found that 73% of Muslim immigrants with voting rights had participated in national elections, only a bit lower than the 81% of the general population. Muslim women voted at the same rate as Muslim men. 50% of Muslims were involved in “mixed organizations rather than organizations based on their own ethnicity or religion.” _Muslims in Europe: A Report on 11 EU Cities_ (New York: Open Society Institute, 2009) 62% of French Muslims claim that democracy is doing well in France, as opposed to only 58% of the general population. In the same poll, Muslims gave a 95% overall favorable rating to France and French institutions. Sylvain Brouard and Vincent Tiberj, _Francais comme les autres? Enquete sur les citoyen d’origine maghrebine, africaine et turque_ (Presses de Sciences Po, 2005) Following the headscarf bans in schools, a U.S. State Department survey found that “large majorities of Muslims in France voice confidence in the country’s government, feel at least partly French, and support integrating into French society.” _French Muslims Favor Integration into French Society_ (Washington, DC: Department of State, Office of Research, Opinion Analysis M-58-05, 2005). A poll from 2005 found that around 80% of Muslims were “comfortable with people of different religions dating or marrying” while 59% would not object to their daughter marrying a non-Muslim. (This is born out in the fact that 25% of French Muslim women have married non-Muslim men.) Jonathan Laurence and Justin Vaisse, _Integrating Islam: Political and Religious Changes in Contemporary Fance_ (Brookings Institution Pres, 2006), 43. 60% of French Muslims claim to have French friends and 45% to have Jewish friends. A separate survey found that French Muslims felt comfortable with other French people at a rate of 85%, but felt comfortable with other Muslims at a rate of only 71% or with others of their immigrant nations at a rate of 77%. When the survey was narrowed to Muslims who self-identified as being Muslim before being French, the 85% figure jumped to 90%. (Among the French general population, this feeling of closeness for French people was only 84%.) Sylvain Brouard and Vincent Tiberj, _Francais comme les autres? Enquete sur les citoyen d’origine maghrebine, africaine et turque_ (Presses de Sciences Po, 2005) Jacob Vigdor created an “assimilation index” that was based, not on attitudes, but on participation. He measured male and female employment, home ownership, and naturalization. Canada and the U.S. demonstrated very high rates of “assimilation” on his scale with rates of 77% and 60%. Most European countries rated much lower–Spain was at 38%, for example. However, when he looked behind his numbers, he did not find that the Muslim immigrants were refusing to buy homes or become naturalized, but that their general poverty and national restrictions on ownership precluded home ownership and high barrier laws prevented naturalization. Jacob L. Vigdor, _Comparing Immigrant Assimilation in North America and Europe_ (New York: Center for State and Local Leadership, May 2011) Claims that Muslims in Europe are not associating with their European neighbors are lies and you should stop going to dishonest web sites to get your [mis]information. Every immigrant group is liable to have some problems, and that certainly includes people from the Middle East, but your broad brush claims are not accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/332 "2016-06-14T22:16:48Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > They used to vote Republican; I wonder if progs would’ve hated them before 2000. > > Point tho is that since Dearborn is the only enclave, they know it and have to accept associating with non-Muslims on a frequent basis. Not the case in many European cities. We don’t need that here. You think Dearborn is the only high-Muslim/Arab population in the U.S.? It’s not. Look at Chicago, L.A., DC, New Jersey/NYC. Again, not exactly places where Arabs are causing havoc. And there are areas on the southend of Dearborn where the residents there don’t have to really “associate” with non-Muslims at all. But still, even with that, none of the problems you predict will happen have happened. And it’s been that way there for decades. And speaking as a “prog” who lived in Dearborn both before and after 2000 (in fact, grew up there): We didn’t hate them. We don’t hate them now, and, in fact, most of the hate has always come from the isolationist conservative fucks who get sick of seeing all the “A-rabs” and “rag heads” everywhere. Most people-- young, progressive, liberal, friendly non-bigoted human beings-- appreciate the diversity Dearborn offers. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/333 "2016-06-14T23:40:41Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Possibly, but there’s nothing they can do that isn’t already being done by Americans whose families have been here for hundreds of years. 40,000 is a miniscule number compared to the population at large. The Lakewood Church in Houston is bigger than that, and has far more political clout. 40,000 may seem like a small number when they have 3 kids each and in a generation, you have 120,000 new voters who can decide close congressional and even POTUS races, that should give you pause. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > We don’t have that here & there’s no reason we will. Do you actually _know_ any Muslims? I do. Yes I do. However, the Muslims I’ve met either came to the US before Radical Islam took off or are kids of those who did, not people fresh out of the Middle East of today. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/334 "2016-06-14T23:49:55Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > 40,000 may seem like a small number when they have 3 kids each and in a generation, you have 120,000 new voters who can decide close congressional and even POTUS races, that should give you pause. And that 120,000 will have grown up here and will think of themselves as Americans. Their votes don’t scare me. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/335 "2016-06-14T23:54:24Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > 40,000 may seem like a small number when they have 3 kids each and in a generation, you have 120,000 new voters who can decide close congressional and even POTUS races, that should give you pause. Those kids will be Americans. I’m not worried about the votes of people who grew up here: there will be some who vote against my interests, and some who vote for. It’s no different from people who immigrate from Portugal or Argentina. The only way for this NOT to be the case is if they are brought in such numbers that they become a self-sustaining community, and educate all of their children privately. I think that fear is unfounded, but the devil is in the details. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/336 "2016-06-15T00:00:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And that 120,000 will have grown up here and will think of themselves as Americans. Their votes don’t scare me. why hasn’t that worked in Europe? Why are younger Muslims more radical than older ones there? > [@](#): > > You think Dearborn is the only high-Muslim/Arab population in the U.S.? It’s not. Look at Chicago, L.A., DC, New Jersey/NYC. Again, not exactly places where Arabs are causing havoc. There are a lot of Muslims and Arabs in those cities true, but there aren’t big enclaves there; they live among others. Those cities don’t have the Azan being [blasted in the morning on loudspeakers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOzhgeGX8BM). ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/337 "2016-06-15T00:07:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And that 120,000 will have grown up here and will think of themselves as Americans. Their votes don’t scare me. How has that worked out in France? I would never underestimate the West’s ability to integrate outsiders, but to blindly assume these children will think themselves as good Americans is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/338 "2016-06-15T00:37:47Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > How has that worked out in France? I would never underestimate the West’s ability to integrate outsiders, but to blindly assume these children will think themselves as good Americans is just wrong. Let me lift the [scales from your eyes](https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/columns/2016/03/27/why-there-are-muslim-ghettoes-belgium-but-not-united-states/zek1CSRR0epWhLmSCiPWKK/story.html): > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, at the grass-roots level, Muslims in the United States, like other cultural and religious minorities, have had no problem acclimating to mainstream norms. In a detailed 2011 survey, the Pew Research Center found that Muslim Americans are “highly assimilated into American society and . . . largely content with their lives.” More than 80 percent of US Muslims expressed satisfaction with life in America, and 63 percent said they felt no conflict “between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society.” The rates at which they participate in various everyday American activities — from following local sports teams to watching entertainment TV — are similar to those of the American public generally. Half of all Muslim immigrants display the US flag at home, in the office, or on their car. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/339 "2016-06-15T00:40:05Z")
**Tomndebb** , your cites of polling on European Muslims are extremely cherry-picked. Earlier in the thread we have cited others showing that they have political beliefs which are starkly different from their non-Muslim neighbors. And not in a good way. ETA: **Fear Itself:** 63% is supposed to be a reassuring number? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/340 "2016-06-15T02:19:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Those cities don’t have the Azan being [blasted in the morning on loudspeakers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOzhgeGX8BM). So what if they did? In parts of Dearborn they do, as you pointed out, and what difference does it make to you? You can also hear church bells. And yes, there are areas of those other cities that have more Arabs/Muslims than Dearborn does. Dearborn just has the highest percentage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=18)