# Democrats need to get ahead of the Syrian refugee issue and triangulate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 18, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865 "2015-11-18T03:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/401 "2016-06-16T12:57:26Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > They are going to be in for quite a surprise, considering Clinton is diametrically opposed to their restrictions. > [@CarnalK](#): > > SlackerInc is a highly partisan Dem and a bit of a Clinton fanboy. Frankly, I would be rather shocked if he didn’t know her positions at least as well as you. It’s true, but even I gagged a bit at Hillary’s reaction to the Orlando attacks. I cosign what [Sam Harris said in his podcast:](https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-end-of-faith-sessions-2) > [@](#): > > As bad as Trump has been–he just gave his big speech yesterday Tuesday and it was terrible, right? Just imagine him being our president: it was a terrible speech. > > And yet he was better than Clinton or than the president in his response to Orlando. And that is terrifying. The president gave a speech without ever mentioning Islamism, jihadism, Islamic terrorism, radical Islam. He gave a speech only focused on the availability of guns and the necessity of reforming our gun laws. > > And Clinton sent an email to her followers where again there was no mention of the actual belief system, the ideology that is producing this kind of violence. She talked about guns and then she immediately pivoted into the concern about Islamophobia, and about demonizing Muslims. This has been the most common response from liberals.[…] > > It is a terrible problem that in addition to all of the stupid things he said in response, only Trump has expressed more clarity on this issue, and he did it in the following sentence in his speech. He said “America must unite the whole civilized world in the fight against Islamic terrorism.” Why can’t Hillary Clinton or President Obama say that?[…] > > The root of this problem is that liberals consistently fail to defend liberal values as universal human values. Their political correctness, their multiculturalism, their moral relativism has led them to rush to the defense of theocrats and to abandon the victims of theocracy. And to vilify anyone who calls out this hypocrisy for what it is, as a bigot. > > But to be clear, right, and this is what liberals can’t seem to get: speaking honestly about the ideas that inspire Islamism and jihadism–beliefs about martyrdom and apostasy and blasphemy and paradise and honor and women–is not an expression of hatred for Muslims. It is in fact the only way to support the embattled people in the Muslim community: the reformers and the liberals and the secularists and the freethinkers and the gays.[…] > > The words we use matter here because in place of conceptual clarity and moral courage what we are getting from the left is just sanctimony and charges of bigotry.[…] > > And this leaves everyone who’s appropriately worried about jihadism and stealth theocracy, and the way in which our freedom of speech is already being abridged by “the religious sensitivity of a single community the world over”…it leaves these people with nowhere to turn but toward the right, toward their own bullies and even theocrats. And this is happening across Europe and it is happening in the US. > > And Trump’s candidacy is a clear expression of this. And it would be so easy for Clinton to steal the ground from under him by just talking honestly about this. And not only would she be making her candidacy stronger and thereby blocking the path of a dangerous incompetent toward the White House, she would be supporting the very people in the Muslim community who are struggling to do the work of reform. > > And if you think speaking honestly about the need for reform within Islam will alienate your allies in the Muslim community, well then you don’t know who your allies are. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/402 "2016-06-16T13:19:14Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If the worst Islam could come up with is a single family of professional trolls and a few assholes who murder people who make a career out of killing unborn children, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Well, American homophobic assholes, who trend Christian, tend to prefer to attack and kill gay people [one at a time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States). And that of course is only a small sample of such incidents. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/403 "2016-06-16T14:06:40Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > People should be judged for their religion - not _because_ it is a religion, but because religiously-inspired thought and action is no different from secular thought and action. If 80% of Afghans are openly in favour of exterminating a religious minority ([See pages 15 and 55](http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf)), then we should absolutely use our right to deny them entry as a matter of course. Yes, exactly! Treating religious ideologies as though they are separate and above other belief systems, and cannot be judged in the same way, is a major hindrance to enlightenment and progress. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > And sorry Israel doesn’t imprison, lash, hang, or defenestration gays. Or punish women for not wearing hijab. Etc. Well, not exactly. But the ultra-orthodox who are rising in power there are [pretty](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/31/world/middleeast/man-attacks-gay-pride-marchers-in-jerusalem-for-second-time-police-say.html?_r=0) [bad](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/03/haredi-women-orthodox-israel-213747#ixzz4BkbBFtt7): > [@](#): > > JERUSALEM — An ultra-Orthodox Jewish man who had recently been released from prison after serving 10 years for stabbing participants in the annual Gay Pride Parade here in 2005 struck again Thursday, stabbing six marchers in this year’s parade, according to the police.[…] > > Jerusalem’s annual Gay Pride Parade has long stirred strong emotions in the city, with many Orthodox Jews objecting to the public display, saying that it defiles the city and offends many of its residents. > [@](#): > > Once a week, Sara Murray puts on a headscarf to cover her hair, and a billowing shirt and pants to cover her ankles and wrists, and takes a bus to a small public building near the ultra-Orthodox Haredi community where she once lived, before the divorce that changed her life. > There, she checks in with two religious social workers, charged by the rabbinical courts with supervising her visits with her six children, now aged 8 to 18. She tries in every way she can to reach out to the four boys and two girls who’ve been taught that she’s brought shame to their family. When she brings them food, they’re scared to eat it. When she offers them gifts, they refuse to take them. > > Murray, who was born in the United States and has joint U.S.-Israeli citizenship, isn’t a criminal. Nor has she engaged in any behavior that would cause her shame in a modern, Westernized society like the United States or Israel. Her only offense was seeking a divorce in an ultra-religious community whose repressive policies, particularly on the role of women, are deeply offensive to most Israelis and other Westerners. > > But, for having once joined the Haredi, she can’t break free of its laws. Israel’s government, seeking to appease the ultra-Orthodox parties that now make up a key part of Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, has only empowered its religious courts. And, by both law and treaty, the United States must honor the rulings of Israel’s rabbinical courts whose domain includes marriage and divorce. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > And other Democrats are starting to admit the problem with Islam. [Barney Frank](http://www.nytimes.com/live/orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates/barney-frank/) just did, as did [Joe Manchin](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/joe-manchin-obama-radical-islam-224361). Awesome about Frank. I’ve always liked him, and he just keeps impressing me more and more. Manchin, OTOH…is not my kind of Democrat. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Well, American homophobic assholes, who trend Christian, tend to prefer to attack and kill gay people [one at a time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States). And that of course is only a small sample of such incidents. False equivalency. Gay-hating Christians are on the run. They are not in the current U.S. mainstream. Whereas, to quote Harris’s podcast again: > [@](#): > > We’re not talking about only jihadists hating homosexuals and thinking they should die, we’re talking about conservative Muslims. The percentage of British Muslims polled who said that homosexuality was morally acceptable was zero. Do you realize what it takes to say something so controversial in a poll that not even 1% of those polled would agree with it? > > There’s almost no question that extreme that you will ever see in a poll that gets a zero, but ask British Muslims whether homosexuality is morally acceptable, and that’s what you get. And the result is more or less the same in dozens of other countries. It’s zero in Cameroon, zero in Ethiopia. 1% in Nigeria, 1% in Tanzania, 1% in Mali, 2% in Kenya, 2% in Chad. 1% in Lebanon, 1% in Egypt, 1% in the Palestinian territories, 1% in Iraq, 2% in Jordan, 2% in Tunisia, 1% in Pakistan. But 10% in Bangladesh. > > Bangladesh: that bright spot in the Muslim world where they are regularly hunting down and butchering secular writers with machetes. > > The people who suffer under this belief system are Muslims themselves. The next generation of human beings born into a Muslim community who could otherwise have been liberal, tolerant, well-educated, cosmopolitan productive people are to one or another degree being taught to aspire to live in the Middle Ages, or to ruin this world on route to some fictional paradise after death. That’s the thing we have to get our heads around. And yes, some of what I just said applies with varying modifications to other religions and other cults. But there is nothing like Islam at this moment for generating this kind of intolerance and chaos. Harris also referred to [this story:](http://nypost.com/2016/06/14/hate-imam-preached-executing-gays-at-orlando-mosque-before-massacre/) > [@](#): > > A firebrand Muslim cleric noted for sermons calling for gay people to be executed reportedly preached at an Orlando-area mosque just weeks before a homegrown terrorist gunned down at least 49 people at a gay nightclub. :dubious: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s hilarious to see you guys argue about the use of the term “radical Islam”. Both Hillary and Obama tore that GOP obsessive talking point to shreds yesterday. Supposedly. Harris again: > [@](#): > > [T]he president in his speech was…again, this is very difficult thing to criticize because 99% of smart people who watch that speech who are not well-attuned to this issue will say he was brilliant, he held the moral high ground, he smashed the demagogue xenophobe racist Trump. Right? > > Finally, there’s a grown-up who’s talking sense.[…] > > [Obama is] obviously a much better speaker than Trump is but his speech was incredibly dishonest and sanctimonious and bullying, frankly. > > [Obama says about ISIS] “They’re not religious, they’re perverting a great religion, they’re distorting a great religion.” I understand why someone may think it’s pragmatic to talk that way, but if in fact we need to talk that way–otherwise we’re going to produce millions of radicals who think that their the religion needs to be defended against the West–that is a statement of a terrifying problem that we need to be thinking about clearly. But otherwise, this is just a lie. The problem is deeper than that. The problem is an all too plausible interpretation of Islam: the “great religion” is yielding this behavior for reasons that are not in the least bit mysterious. > [@adaher](#): > > Sort of. In the process Obama exposed his own tortured logic. The real reason Obama doesn’t want to say “radical Islam” is that a lot of our allies are radical Muslims. The Saudis practice a radical form of Islam. So he’s kinda telling us why we don’t do it, without really telling us why we don’t want to do it: because we want to stay allied with radical Muslims like the Sauds. > > Actually, we ally ourselves with radical Muslims in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Syria, pretty much everywhere. That’s the real reason our leaders don’t want to say it. Our friends are a huge part of the problem, spreading their poisonous ideology. Yes, **exactly**. Harris spoke to this point as well (note in particular the last sentence): > [@](#): > > The words we use matter here because in place of conceptual clarity and moral courage what we are getting from the left is just sanctimony and charges of bigotry. […] > > And this leaves everyone who’s appropriately worried about jihadism and stealth theocracy, and the way in which our freedom of speech is already being abridged by “the religious sensitivity of a single community the world over”…it leaves these people with nowhere to turn but toward the right, toward their own bullies and even theocrats. And this is happening across Europe and it is happening in the US. > > And Trump’s candidacy is a clear expression of this. And it would be so easy for Clinton to steal the ground from under him by just talking honestly about this. And not only would she be making her candidacy stronger and thereby blocking the path of a dangerous incompetent toward the White House, she would be supporting the very people in the Muslim community who are struggling to do the work of reform. > > And if you think speaking honestly about the need for reform within Islam will alienate your allies in the Muslim community…well, then you don’t know who your allies are. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/404 "2016-06-16T14:12:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Germany is basically taking the entire population of Syrian refugees on themselves because no one else will.m. You know that’s not remotely true, right? 2.7 million in Turkey. 1.5 million in Lebanon. 1.2 million in Jordan. 600,000 in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/405 "2016-06-16T14:23:45Z")
I would have extended him the benefit of the doubt there and assumed he meant the European contingent of Syrian refugees. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/406 "2016-06-16T14:37:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Well, not exactly. But the ultra-orthodox who are rising in power there are [pretty](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/31/world/middleeast/man-attacks-gay-pride-marchers-in-jerusalem-for-second-time-police-say.html?_r=0) [bad](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/03/haredi-women-orthodox-israel-213747#ixzz4BkbBFtt7): There is no equivalence between the state imprisoning and executing gays, as Muslim countries do, to a crazy demographic and political minority that is the Haredim. Yeah the marriage system is messed up there, but gays openly serve in government, military, culture, etc. Gay marriages performed abroad are recognized in Israel. There’s a reason Bill Maher and Sam Harris stand with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/407 "2016-06-16T14:41:23Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Edward Said, a man revered as the voice of the Palestinians, [ Spare me the parroting of the extreme right agitprop. Said, an anglophone voice among many may be reverred among the anglophone American Left, but he was an English professor and I have no care for what he wrote about… your obession with using him as some king of huge straw man to hang the obsessions on we are aware of. > [@](#): > > . He also mentioned the clout the guy had in the Muslim world. citation to the exact assertion as we can not trust your lens of reading to be in any way accurate. In any case that is pure rubbish and unfounded. A marginal figure who gets the most attention from a certain kind of bigoted discourse that tries to assert a conflation of the Nazis with the Muslims. > [@](#): > > Edward Said is highly revered among Palestinians and fellow Arabs/Muslims, and post-colonial types alike. Do not pretend to tell me, my dear monolingual american who is “revered” among the arabophones and the Muslims - and enough of wide smearing. Said had a certain following among the Palestinians and among the american academics, he was not a God nor the unique voice - however he is the voice that the American reactionaries have seized on. > [@](#): > > Can’t find any serious people who thinks Lenin and Trotsky represented Jewish consensus. Nor can you find serious people who will talk of an arab / muslim consensus - although hate mongering propapandist writers will assert. This is a ridiculous and disgusting strawman smearing. > [@](#): > > Oh wait, you mean to tell me [URL=“[1941 Iraqi coup d'état - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Iraqi_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)”]this didn’t happen]([Blaming the Victims: Spurious Scholarship and the Palestinian Question - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=wELzivMr_-cC&pg=PA248&dq=%22represented+the+Palestinian+Arab+national+consensus,+had+the+backing+of+the+Palestinian+political+parties+that+functioned+in+Palestine,+and+was+recognized+in+some+form+by+Arab+governments+as+the+voice+of+the+Palestinian+people.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1p9S0pKvNAhUDU1IKHUzED1wQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=%22represented%20the%20Palestinian%20Arab%20national%20consensus%2C%20had%20the%20backing%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20political%20parties%20that%20functioned%20in%20Palestine%2C%20and%20was%20recognized%20in%20some%20form%20by%20Arab%20governments%20as%20the%20voice%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20people.%22&f=false)), with respect to Iraq? [/QUOTE] What about the Iraqi coup, anti british colonial coup it was? Or is this part of the fantasy history you imagine where the USA is riding to rescue the Japanese from the very Soviets they pushed to invade… This is all irrelevant to the subject and merely a smokescreen of GishGallop smearing ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/408 "2016-06-16T14:41:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You know that’s not remotely true, right? > > 2.7 million in Turkey. 1.5 million in Lebanon. 1.2 million in Jordan. > > 600,000 in Germany. That’s kind of a large amount of people to taken given their high child bearing rate. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/409 "2016-06-16T15:03:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “SJW” is another bullshit term. I think it should be ‘taken back’ as it were. I find nothing objectionable as being defined as a warrior for social justice. Wear it as a badge of pride. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/410 "2016-06-16T15:09:46Z")
Btw, I’m not entirely sure an appeal to authority to Sam Harris is necessarily all that helpful. Personally I consider him an ignorant blowhard, and I know I’m not the only one. I mean he’s not necessarily horrible as Bill Maher, but he’s close. (FWIW, I grew up a Muslim and find the fundamentalists have indeed twisted the faith of my parents) It’s probably be better if you told us what you personally find objectionable Obama’s and Clinton’s words (which is a good example of an appeal to authority mostly because we know that you support Clinton), rather than quote someone who is notorious for hating religion in general. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/411 "2016-06-16T15:34:08Z")
I’m not quoting him as an appeal to authority. I’m quoting him (after having painstakingly transcribed what he said) because I consider his take to be a far more perfect articulation of how I feel than anything I could write. So it’s a choice between (among?) essentially plagiarizing him, quoting him and crediting the source, or presenting an inferior version of my argument. It’s funny that you mention Maher, because he is another favorite of mine. I think the stark difference in how high those two land in our respective esteems would probably be seen as “feature, not bug” by each of us. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/412 "2016-06-16T15:54:45Z")
I don’t think either of them understands even the slightest thing about religion. Considering that Hillary Clinton is a quite passionate religious believer (not to mention Barack Obama is very serious about his faith), I think you can’t really understand where they are coming from if you don’t ‘get’ religion (that is not to say an atheist can’t understand religion or how religious people view religion - plenty do). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/413 "2016-06-16T16:10:32Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > That’s kind of a large amount of people to taken given their high child bearing rate. You know, my immigrant ancestors also had an emormously high child-bearing rate. As they educated and acculturated and (perhaps more importantly) got access to birth control when it became widely available, the birth rate dropped. I see no evidence to suggest that Syrians will be any different. The Koran is fundamentally NO DIFFERENT from the Bible when it comes to passages espousing hatred and violence. Muslims are no more required to follow their book slavishly than are Christians or Jews. If Westerners can have their religion and ignore the brutal, medieval aspects of it, Muslims can too. And most of them do. Why is this so difficult? Muslims are people. People suck. Not because they’re Muslims, but because they’re people. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/414 "2016-06-16T16:18:32Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The Koran is fundamentally NO DIFFERENT from the Bible when it comes to passages espousing hatred and violence. Absolutely true. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Muslims are no more required to follow their book slavishly than are Christians or Jews. If Westerners can have their religion and ignore the brutal, medieval aspects of it, Muslims can too. In theory, yes. But it may take them a few hundred years, just like it did for the West to get from the Inquisition days to the current state of things. Or maybe the pressures of modernity will make it faster, but I’m not optimistic I’ll see it in my lifetime. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > And most of them do. Ehhh…no. Don’t I wish. But countless poll findings show otherwise, not to mention honor killings, imprisonment (or worse) of apostates, etc. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/415 "2016-06-16T16:22:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > In theory, yes. But it may take them a few hundred years, just like it did for the West to get from the Inquisition days to the current state of things. Or maybe the pressures of modernity will make it faster, but I’m not optimistic I’ll see it in my lifetime. But you already are seeing it – in many ways, including tolerance of homosexuality, Muslim Americans (in general) are more assimilated and more progressive than evangelical and Mormon Americans. EDIT: [Linky](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/416 "2016-06-16T16:32:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But you already are seeing it – in many ways, including tolerance of homosexuality, Muslim Americans (in general) are more assimilated and more progressive than evangelical and Mormon Americans. > > EDIT: [Linky](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/). Marginally, and the gap appears to be closing. Reminds me of that old SNL sketch with Bill Clinton bragging about Arkansas in a debate in the '92 election. > [@](#): > > Sam Donaldson: Governor Clinton, let’s be frank. You’re running for president, yet your only experience has been as the governor of a small, backward state with a population of drunken hillbillies riding around in pickup trucks. The main streets of your capital city, Little Rock, are something out of L’il Abner, with buxom underage girls in their cutoff denims prancing around in front of Jethro and Billy Bob, while corncob-pipe-smoking, shotgun-toting grannies fire indiscriminantly at runaway hogs. > > Bill Clinton: I’m sorry, Sam, do you have a question? > > Sam Donaldson: My question is: How can you stand it? Don’t you lose your mind living down there? > > Bill Clinton: Sam, you must have watched too many of my opponent’s TV spots. I’m tired of the Bush campaign trying to portray my home state as some sort of primitive Third World country. The fact is, Arkansas did have a long way to go, but we’ve made progress. When I started as governor, we were fiftieth in adult literacy, and last year, I’m proud to say, we shot ahead of Mississippi. We’re #49, and we’re closing fast on Alabama. Watch out, Alabama - we got your number! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/417 "2016-06-16T16:41:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Marginally, and the gap appears to be closing. Reminds me of that old SNL sketch with Bill Clinton bragging about Arkansas in a debate in the '92 election. I think that’s a flippant dismissal of a remarkable fact – that Muslim Americans really are assimilating quite well, and are more open and accepting of homosexuality than very large groups of long-time Americans who no one denies are mostly assimilated into American society and culture. The role and status of Muslim Americans is a remarkably positive American success story, and the existence of a very small number of murderous assholes doesn’t negate this. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/418 "2016-06-16T17:40:16Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > You know, my immigrant ancestors also had an emormously high child-bearing rate. As they educated and acculturated and (perhaps more importantly) got access to birth control when it became widely available, the birth rate dropped. I see no evidence to suggest that Syrians will be any different. Look at Europe where the large amount of Muslim immigrants can all cluster together instead of being forced to join everyone else. Why are there [pro-ISIS rallies](http://www.newsweek.com/pro-isis-demonstrators-call-death-jews-hague-262064) [in Europe](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/isis-s-black-flags-are-flying-in-europe.html)? Why do [these integrated immigrants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Islamist_demonstration_outside_the_Embassy_of_Denmark_in_London) think attacking an embassy over cartoons is OK? > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The Koran is fundamentally NO DIFFERENT from the Bible when it comes to passages espousing hatred and violence. Muslims are no more required to follow their book slavishly than are Christians or Jews. If Westerners can have their religion and ignore the brutal, medieval aspects of it, Muslims can too. And most of them do. Even for the fact all of the holy books say awful things, the ultra-majority of Christian nations (and the Jewish nation) don’t kill people who don’t comply with religious laws, nor do they have many politicians with the likelihood and ability to enact such laws. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Why is this so difficult? Muslims are people. People suck. Not because they’re Muslims, but because they’re people. And so are gays, Jews, and women. Look at how Jews have been driven [out of Europe](http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/international/c/2015-heinous-as-attack.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.V2LjMfkrKCg), [in no small part](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/) [because of](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/jews-are-leaving-france-in-record-numbers-amid-rising-anti-semitism-and-fears-of-more-isis-inspired-a6832391.html) [Muslim immigrants and the left-wing coopting their Jew-hatred](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-barber/muslim-migrants-fan-europ_b_9395896.html). PS: I might or might not be Jewish, and I’m looking out for my physical safety if I am. If I’m not, I’m defending a demographic group of winners who achieve things other than jihad. Look at Orlando, or honor killings that are prevalent in the Muslim world and in Muslim enclaves in Europe. Or that most of the countries in which gays are executed as a matter of state law are Muslim countries. Or women are forced by law or society into hijabs. Do we really want that? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/419 "2016-06-16T18:16:18Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Look at Orlando, or honor killings that are prevalent in the Muslim world and in Muslim enclaves in Europe. Or that most of the countries in which gays are executed as a matter of state law are Muslim countries. Or women are forced by law or society into hijabs. Do we really want that? I also don’t want doctors and women attacked for abortions. I don’t want gays denied marriage or gay youth sent to camps for re-education. I don’t want transgendered people to be afraid of using a public bathroom. Christians are doing that. They are just as big of a problem as extremists from the Middle East, if not moreso, because Christians have tons of power here and are capable of enormous damage. This one guy killed 50+ people and that’s a big problem, 3000 died on 9/11 and that’s terrible too. But how much suffering has Christians created in the name of their book over the past few decades? I’d wager on anything else other than direct lives taken, Christians are a bigger contributor of suffering in the US than Muslims I’m much more worried about Christians than Muslims. I’m more worried about shark attacks than Muslims. Muslims simply don’t cross my mind on a daily basis, unlike those intolerant Christians who still continue to fight for their proveably wrong ideology long after the SCOTUS already made gay marriage the law of the land. Why don’t you rail against the real problem in this country, Christian theocrats? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/420 "2016-06-16T18:47:41Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > why do you conveniently ignore the poll that Grumman cited? An infintesimally small percent of Christians support bombing abortion clinics. So it’s a matter of degree, not principle, then? Sorry, try again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=22)