# Democrats need to get ahead of the Syrian refugee issue and triangulate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 18, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865 "2015-11-18T03:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/501 "2016-07-25T17:42:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It would go down a lot, for the same reason it went up. These folks think they are aiding a cause. If the cause is defeated in the Middle East, there’s no reason for Europeans to throw their lives away. Might as well do a suicide bombing in support of Mussolini. It’s ludicrous to me that people still think the after-effects of large-scale military action in the Middle East can be predicted. It’s inherently unpredictable. There’s no way to know what would happen if we utterly destroyed ISIS. There’s no reason to believe that things getting better would be any more likely than things getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/502 "2016-07-25T19:23:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Straight answers always beat flimflam. > [@adaher](#): > > EVEN when the straight answers are idiocy … There’s a logical fallacy in there somewhere, but I’m not sure which one. You win the argument already - even in stating that idiocy is they way you want to go - because the alternative is perfectly untenable: “flimflam.” The problem is that you’re defining diplomacy - you know the thing that allows nations to deal with each other without killing millions of people? - as flimflam. You’d rather have a leader who makes a statement, even if it is _idiocy_, for Christ’s sake, because you think diplomacy is flimflam. You’re a Trump supporter, alright. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/503 "2016-07-25T19:24:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s ludicrous to me that people still think the after-effects of large-scale military action in the Middle East can be predicted. > > It’s inherently unpredictable. There’s no way to know what would happen if we utterly destroyed ISIS. There’s no reason to believe that things getting better would be any more likely than things getting worse. So by your logic, there’s no point in doing anything at all to oppose them militarily? (Leaving the politics aside for the nonce, since it would obviously be political suicide to unilaterally withdraw from the fight.) ETA: **Jack** , how about “straw man”, for the “flimflam”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/504 "2016-07-26T01:58:40Z")
We already are opposing them militarily, with the goal being to destroy them. We’re just trying to do it without losing many Americans in the process. But we will fight to the last Kurd, Shiite Arab, Iranian, and even French and German citizen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/505 "2016-07-26T09:15:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So by your logic, there’s no point in doing anything at all to oppose them militarily? (Leaving the politics aside for the nonce, since it would obviously be political suicide to unilaterally withdraw from the fight.) > > ETA: **Jack** , how about “straw man”, for the “flimflam”? With a large scale ground force from the US, yes. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/506 "2016-08-16T08:23:41Z")
It’s a damn good thing Trump is such a #whinylittlebitch and just generally a disaster as a general election candidate. If a competent Republican delivered some of the lines Trump read listlessly from the teleprompter today (Monday), it would be a very effective broadside against the politically correct liberal line. And that danger still remains for 2020 and beyond: > [@](#): > > Nor can we let the hateful ideology of Radical Islam – its oppression of women, gays, children, and nonbelievers – be allowed to reside or spread within our own countries. > > While my opponent accepted millions of dollars in Foundation donations from countries where being gay is an offense punishable by prison or death, my Administration will speak out against the oppression of women, gays and people of different faith. > > Our Administration will be a friend to all moderate Muslim reformers in the Middle East, and will amplify their voices. This includes speaking out against the horrible practice of honor killings, where women are murdered by their relatives for dressing, marrying or acting in a way that violates fundamentalist teachings. > > Over 1,000 Pakistani girls are estimated to be the victims of honor killings by their relatives each year. Recently, a prominent Pakistani social media star was strangled to death by her brother on the charge of dishonoring the family. In his confession, the brother took pride in the murder and said: “Girls are born to stay home and follow traditions.” Shockingly, this is a practice that has reached our own shores. One such case involves an Iraqi immigrant who was sentenced to 34 years in jail for running over his own daughter claiming she had become “too Westernized.” > > To defeat Islamic terrorism, we must also speak out forcefully against a hateful ideology that provides the breeding ground for violence and terrorism to grow.[…] > > In Cologne, Germany, on New Year’s Eve, we have seen the reports of sexual violence and assault. Pew polling shows that in many of the countries from which we draw large numbers of immigrants, extreme views about religion – such as the death penalty for those who leave the faith – are commonplace. A Trump Administration will establish a clear principle that will govern all decisions pertaining to immigration: we should only admit into this country those who share our values and respect our people. In the Cold War, we had an ideological screening test. The time is overdue to develop a new screening test for the threats we face today. In addition to screening out all members or sympathizers of terrorist groups, we must also screen out any who have hostile attitudes towards our country or its principles – or who believe that Sharia law should supplant American law. Those who do not believe in our Constitution, or who support bigotry and hatred, will not be admitted for immigration into the country. Only those who we expect to flourish in our country – and to embrace a tolerant American society – should be issued immigrant visas.[…] > > In short, Hillary Clinton wants to be America’s Angela Merkel.[…] > > The Ft. Hood Shooter delivered a presentation to a room full of mental health experts before the attacks in which he threw out one red flag after another. He even proclaimed that “we love death more than you love life!” These warnings signs were ignored because political correctness has replaced common sense in our society. We definitely do not want Democrats to come to be seen like Merkel is. She was so popular for so long, and now she has just trashed her image by appearing to be a sucker, a chump, who puts Muslim immigrants ahead of her own people and ahead of enlightened, progressive, 21st century Western values. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/507 "2016-10-20T02:33:41Z")
“I am not going to slam the door on women and children.” - Hillary Clinton, commenting on Syrian refugees moments ago in the presidential debate. Mission. Accomplished. \ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/508 "2016-10-20T02:41:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “I am not going to slam the door on women and children.” - Hillary Clinton, commenting on Syrian refugees moments ago in the presidential debate. > > Mission. Accomplished. > > \ Despite what you think, she’s not actually complimenting you; indeed, the comment in the debate wasn’t even saying what you were saying, much less saying anything about you. To the extent that she’s proposing barring men, she’s wrong. But there’s nowhere on her website that she makes such a proposal; the comment in the debate was a rhetorical flourish, as our society generally considers “women and children” to be a helpless, harmless group. I will give you this: when she made that comment, I immediately thought, “Oh boy, I bet Slacker’s gonna bump his thread over this.” ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/509 "2016-10-20T03:11:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Despite what you think, she’s not actually complimenting you; indeed, the comment in the debate wasn’t even saying what you were saying, much less saying anything about you. > > To the extent that she’s proposing barring men, she’s wrong. But there’s nowhere on her website that she makes such a proposal; the comment in the debate was a rhetorical flourish, as our society generally considers “women and children” to be a helpless, harmless group. > > I will give you this: when she made that comment, I immediately thought, “Oh boy, I bet Slacker’s gonna bump his thread over this.” Right. Claiming that means she’s planning on barring men is either extremely myopic or disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/510 "2016-10-20T03:23:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > To the extent that she’s proposing barring men, she’s wrong. But there’s nowhere on her website that she makes such a proposal; the comment in the debate was a rhetorical flourish, as our society generally considers “women and children” to be a helpless, harmless group. > > I will give you this: when she made that comment, I immediately thought, “Oh boy, I bet Slacker’s gonna bump his thread over this.” Of course! But you argue here as though it was the substance that was the important part. The word “triangulate” should have been a clue that it was the \*politics \*I was after. And by saying this in the debate, watched by scores of millions, she did just what I wanted her to do. No one’s going to go check her website, and it doesn’t matter what will actually ultimately happen. The \*political \*aim has been achieved. ETA: I want to highlight more specifically one specific part of your sputtering protestations there, **LHOD** : “as our society generally considers ‘women and children’ to be a helpless, harmless group.” That you don’t understand that this was _exactly my point all along_ kind of blows my mind. I thought you were a little more perspicacious than that. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Right. Claiming that means she’s planning on barring men is either extremely myopic or disingenuous. I don’t care (much) what she’s _planning_, I care what \*message \*she is sending to low information voters (yes, I’m cynical that way). And what message do you think she meant to send by saying “I am not going to slam the door on women and children”? That she’s not going to slam the door on Syrian _men_? Awfully funny way to put it in that case! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/511 "2016-10-20T03:37:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I don’t care (much) what she’s _planning_, I care what \*message \*she is sending to low information voters (yes, I’m cynical that way). And what message do you think she meant to send by saying “I am not going to slam the door on women and children”? That she’s not going to slam the door on Syrian _men_? Awfully funny way to put it in that case! :rolleyes: That she cares about humanitarian crises. Obviously. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/512 "2016-10-20T03:51:58Z")
Obviously. :rolleyes: And she just \*happened \*to specifically mention women and children, while just \*happening \*to leave out any mention of men. And she also just coincidentally \*happened \*to do the same at the [earlier town hall debate](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/2016-presidential-debate-transcript-229519#ixzz4Nar42Vpz) in her response to a similar question: > [@](#): > > First of all, I will not let anyone into our country that I think poses a risk to us. But there are a lot of refugees, women and children, think of that picture we all saw of that 4-year-old boy with the blood on his forehead because he’d been bombed by the Russian and Syrian air forces. There are children suffering in this catastrophic war, largely, I believe because of Russian aggression. And we need to do our part. No political calculation at all, no sir. Look, I know you’re all sputtering and smoking like V-ger, your logic circuits overloading, but the fact is that if you think my proposal was so “immoral” and “unconscionable”, then so is what she has been doing, in what is obviously a very calculated manner, in these two debates. You just can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/513 "2016-10-20T03:56:02Z")
Sputtering. Hah. Ad hominem is the first resort to those that have nothing. Who said it wasn’t political calculation? Women and children have always been more sympathetic in the public mind. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/514 "2016-10-20T03:57:01Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Who said it wasn’t political calculation? Women and children have always been more sympathetic in the public mind. Uhhh…then what was with all the outrage over my proposal originally? This is exactly what I had in mind, and she did exactly what I wanted her to. P.S. I’d do some research on _ad hominem_ if I were you. Characterizing what you _see your debate opponents doing in the current debate_ does not qualify. It’s more like “We all know Joe Blow is a loser, so why should we believe his opinion on refugees?” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/515 "2016-10-20T04:25:56Z")
There is nothing Clinton says in prepared remarks that isn’t tested in front of focus groups. She says “women and children”, but I’ve seen the picture of refugees. In reality, we’ll be taking 80% young men I bet. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/516 "2016-10-20T04:34:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is nothing Clinton says in prepared remarks that isn’t tested in front of focus groups. She says “women and children”, but I’ve seen the picture of refugees. In reality, we’ll be taking 80% young men I bet. [Only 25% of Syrian refugees are males aged 18-59](http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php). Women and children comprise 73% of the total. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/517 "2016-10-20T04:37:54Z")
Dude, you know that Hillary Clinton has NOT taken your dreadful advice on refugee policy even though you pick out a few words and say that it can be read to mean something other than what her position is. I read your gloating and I think of Aesop: [http://englishaesop.lauragibbs.net/2010/07/fly-and-chariot.html](http://englishaesop.lauragibbs.net/2010/07/fly-and-chariot.html) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/518 "2016-10-20T05:01:35Z")
“Dude”, you remind me (sorry!) of Trump here. Like when he continues to insist he always opposed the Iraq war, or he never said global warming was a fraud perpetrated by China. You can insist all you like that black is white and up is down, but it don’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/519 "2016-10-20T05:11:09Z")
Ok, let’s bet. It is a two-part bet: I say between now and the election, Clinton will make no statement or policy proposal to exclude males from being eligible for refugee status. This doesn’t mean “she only mentioned women and children so we can infer something,” I’m saying she will never say (and might even outright reject) “males will not be allowed in.” And, after the election, males will be eligible to come to the US as refugees. If I’m wrong on either or both parts, I’ll send you $500 for being a genius. If I’m right on both parts, you send me $250. I think these terms are very generous. And I pay my debts, unlike Trump. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/520 "2016-10-20T05:20:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Only 25% of Syrian refugees are males aged 18-59](http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php). Women and children comprise 73% of the total. Shocking. Friend **adaher** says one thing, facts say another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=27)