# Democrats need to get ahead of the Syrian refugee issue and triangulate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 18, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865 "2015-11-18T03:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/521 "2016-10-20T05:29:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ok, let’s bet. It is a two-part bet: I say between now and the election, Clinton will make no statement or policy proposal to exclude males from being eligible for refugee status. This doesn’t mean “she only mentioned women and children so we can infer something,” I’m saying she will never say (and might even outright reject) “males will not be allowed in.” > > And, after the election, males will be eligible to come to the US as refugees. > > If I’m wrong on either or both parts, I’ll send you $500 for being a genius. If I’m right on both parts, you send me $250. > > I think these terms are very generous. And I pay my debts, unlike Trump. Do you? I do pay my debts, but I’m not making this bet. I’m not sure if you think I’m a fool, or if you genuinely misunderstood my stance this badly. First of all, yes: of course “males” (by which I assume you actually mean “men”, since half of \*children \*are male) will ultimately be among the refugees she lets in. She will never explicitly say they will \*not \*be let in, so no one will be able to accuse her of breaking a promise. Secondly, her statements in these two debates are likely to be the last time she says \*anything \*on the subject before the election. But saying what she did in two debates with huge audiences is more than good enough for me. But if you want to bet that she’ll explicitly promise (perhaps in response to a reporter’s question asking for clarification on the subject due to her saying “women and children” twice), _before the election_, to take adult male Syrians as well, then I’ll absolutely take that bet. That will not happen: you can take it to the bank. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/522 "2016-10-20T05:44:07Z")
When a candidate repeatedly talks about women and children, or as Obama did, widows and orphans, it’s definitely an attempt to give a certain misleading impression. I think we’re all well aware that Democrats pursue policies quite different from the rhetoric they use to sell them. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/523 "2016-10-20T05:56:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When a candidate repeatedly talks about women and children, or as Obama did, widows and orphans, it’s definitely an attempt to give a certain misleading impression. Sure, of course. > [@adaher](#): > > I think we’re all well aware that Democrats pursue policies quite different from the rhetoric they use to sell them. “Democrats.” Because Republicans \*never \*“spin” anything. They always use rhetoric that paints the most accurate picture of their policies, even if they know it is not the most flattering one. Do you \*hear \*yourself? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/524 "2016-10-20T06:01:55Z")
I wouldn’t know, since Republicans haven’t been at odds with public opinion much in recent years, and when they have they haven’t bothered too much with spin. The GOP argument on Syrian refugees is pretty plain and pretty accurate: our vetting system is not actually adequate enough. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/525 "2016-10-20T06:14:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The GOP argument on Syrian refugees is pretty plain and pretty accurate: our vetting system is not actually adequate enough. As proven by the numbers of Syrian refugees we let in who subsequently commit terrorist acts. Remind me: How many Trojan horse terrorists have we let in so far, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/526 "2016-10-20T06:30:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I do pay my debts, but I’m not making this bet. I’m not sure if you think I’m a fool, or if you genuinely misunderstood my stance this badly. I am shhhhhhhocked. My monocle just fell out! I offer terms that are twice as hard for me to win, and wager twice the money, and it’s a bad bet. Yeah. ETA: My understanding of your point resides in post number one, in which you say Democrats should tell voters (primarily low information voters, apparently) that they will reject Syrian men and let in women and children. And so, Clinton uses the words “women and children” while talking about refugees and you claim she’s adopted your position. Sure. > [@](#): > > But saying what she did in two debates with huge audiences is more than good enough for me. “My what a dust I do raise.” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/527 "2016-10-20T07:19:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I wouldn’t know, since Republicans haven’t been at odds with public opinion much in recent years, and when they have they haven’t bothered too much with spin. Oh jeez. :rolleyes: That you can say that right now in 2016, with Kellyanne Conway and Mike Pence roaming about spinning like I’ve never seen, is just…as Obama would say: “C’mon, man.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/528 "2016-10-20T07:29:04Z")
**Raven Man** , while **Snarky Kong** is brushing up on what _ad hominem_ actually is, I would suggest you look up the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, because that is the game you are playing with me and it is tiresome and fruitless to contest. As long as you can find some slight detail to point to that is superficially non-identical, you’ll say that what Hillary did in the two debates is _completely different_ from what I proposed. I’m not going to waste my time continually trying to rebut your nitpickery. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/529 "2016-10-20T10:56:20Z")
Trying to follow you here: is your proposal actually that the US should take refugees regardless of sex but shouldn’t actually mention that in public? Because if that’s your proposal, you should have mentioned that in the OP. And if that’s not your proposal, you should get that shoulder looked at and sheepishly apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/530 "2016-10-20T12:15:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Raven Man** , while **Snarky Kong** is brushing up on what _ad hominem_ actually is, I would suggest you look up the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, because that is the game you are playing with me and it is tiresome and fruitless to contest. As long as you can find some slight detail to point to that is superficially non-identical, you’ll say that what Hillary did in the two debates is _completely different_ from what I proposed. I’m not going to waste my time continually trying to rebut your nitpickery. You’re claiming victory based on your inferring meaning from a statement that is not actually in the statement. That isn’t nitpicking, that’s you trying to prove yourself right at all costs. If you say Clinton should like apples and bananas but hate pears, and she merely says that she likes apples and bananas, you don’t get to claim that she indeed hates pears. It’s a silly, silly claim. I think you’re so wrapped up in declaring victory that you aren’t reading the plain text of her remarks correctly. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/531 "2016-10-20T13:03:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The GOP argument on Syrian refugees is pretty plain and pretty accurate: our vetting system is not actually adequate enough. You obviously don’t know anything about the U.S. refugee resettlement system. No one’s life is more thoroughly scrutinized than a refugee’s. If they can’t do it, then they don’t let them in. I have worked in refugee resettlement, and I’ve never seen so much ignorance and misinformation bandied about in public discourse–by all the media, but especially by Trump and his party. Compared to all the people coming in by other official statuses, refugees are a very minor risk. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/532 "2016-10-20T14:40:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Raven Man** , while **Snarky Kong** is brushing up on what _ad hominem_ actually is, I would suggest you look up the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, because that is the game you are playing with me and it is tiresome and fruitless to contest. As long as you can find some slight detail to point to that is superficially non-identical, you’ll say that what Hillary did in the two debates is _completely different_ from what I proposed. I’m not going to waste my time continually trying to rebut your nitpickery. “a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.” Attacking me as sputtering with rage is 100% an ad hominem. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/533 "2016-10-20T16:07:14Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > As proven by the numbers of Syrian refugees we let in who subsequently commit terrorist acts. Remind me: How many Trojan horse terrorists have we let in so far, exactly? Still waiting on an answer on this, **adaher**. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/534 "2016-10-20T20:20:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Trying to follow you here: is your proposal actually that the US should take refugees regardless of sex but shouldn’t actually mention that in public? Because if that’s your proposal, you should have mentioned that in the OP. And if that’s not your proposal, you should get that shoulder looked at and sheepishly apologize. My proposal was quite clearly principally about politics, not policy. That’s clear from the title, and from its location in Elections. Hillary improved on it by being even more devious and disingenuous ( **adaher** is partly right) in a way she can’t technically be called on later, so brava to her. But the basic thrust is, I think any honest observer would have to acknowledge, in line with what I was advocating. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/535 "2016-10-20T20:23:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > My proposal was quite clearly principally about politics, not policy. That’s clear from the title, and from its location in Elections. Hillary improved on it by being even more devious and disingenuous ( **adaher** is partly right) in a way she can’t technically be called on later, so brava to her. But the basic thrust is, I think any honest observer would have to acknowledge, in line with what I was advocating. And yet I am honest, and I think you’re 100% wrong. Furthermore, I think maybe you should reread the OP. Here: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > OR…we as Democrats can triangulate and say “Okay, it might not be a good idea to bring in Syrian men. But we are not going to be like the heartless Republicans and turn away women and their small children. Furthermore, let’s look by contrast at how little we have to fear from immigrants from Latin America. We should be welcoming them with open arms, and providing legal status for those already here.” That’s a winning political message, and even if you think it is unjust for the Syrian men turned away, in utilitarian terms it does the most progressive good for the most people. Claiming that’s not about policy is bizarre: you talk about the men turned away, and about the utilitarian good it does for people who come in. Claiming that’s what Clinton said is completely misunderstanding what she said. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/536 "2016-10-20T20:43:52Z")
Not being in the Pit, I don’t see how I can respond to your claim of honesty other than to either agree with it or ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/537 "2016-10-20T20:45:05Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Not being in the Pit, I don’t see how I can respond to your claim of honesty other than to either agree with it or ignore it. Well, gosh. You could, you know, not poison the well next time by suggesting that only dishonest posters would disagree with you. That’s a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/538 "2016-10-20T21:01:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Not being in the Pit, I don’t see how I can respond to your claim of honesty other than to either agree with it or ignore it. Clinton didn’t propose that Syrian men be barred from coming here as refugees, nor did she link the issue to Latin Americans to make the latter seem less dangerous. So, as another honest observer, I wouldn’t say her remarks were “in line with” your proposal. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/539 "2016-10-21T00:46:47Z")
Yes, what was I thinking. Hillary’s debate strategy bears no resemblance to what I proposed. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865/540 "2016-10-21T00:52:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, what was I thinking. Hillary’s debate strategy bears no resemblance to what I proposed. :rolleyes: Poor Slacker–nobody except himself thinks he’s winning this debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-need-to-get-ahead-of-the-syrian-refugee-issue-and-triangulate/737865.md?page=28)