# Democrats -- No Winners?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526 "2004-04-28T17:51:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/21 "2004-04-28T19:36:11Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Congratulations, you’ve just shown that you have absolutely no idea what “excommunication” means. > **[Definition of excommunicate | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/excommunicate)** > > Definition of excommunicate from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more. ---
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/22 "2004-04-28T19:37:13Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Then why did you direct me to two websites that don’t mention anything remotely resembling excommunication? How’s about you provide me your working definition of excommunication. Now provide me with what you ‘thought’ excommunication was? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/23 "2004-04-28T19:41:08Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > I can’t blame Clinton for the congressional losses. Economy? I think our economy is doing great and I hate to admit it but I like the tax cuts and think they’re a good thing. Bush scores points with me for one thing; I actually got a check from the government for $500 bucks from the tax cuts. No other politician ever put money into my pocket like that. And if Kerry gets elected he’s going to rescind the tax cuts. My paycheck looks better with Bush than Kerry. Bush has the worst job creation record since Herbert Hoover. He’s had one great quarter and that’s about it. His tax cuts were mostly geared towards the top percentiles and left out millions of people at the bottom who don’t pay federal taxes but do pay regressive taxes like the sales tax. The $500 I got was nice. But neither I nor my spouse have seen a pay raise in over a year. They also upped the co-pay on my health insurance and raised monthly premiums so that pretty much made up for any tax cut Bush threw at us. Are you sure you’re a Democrat? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/24 "2004-04-28T19:43:30Z")
First, you may want to take a look at this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=252972). It has a good commentary on Kerry and excommunication. Particularly, \*\*Bricker \*\* provides an excellent working definition of excommunication: > [@](#): > > Excommunication is a legal sanction within canon law that cuts off access to all the sacraments, and must be lifted before any sacraments may be lawfully administered. In many cases, it must be specifically imposed by a court of competent jurisdicition. What you linked to is not the Catholic definition of excommunication. Even with your definition, your linked thread STILL have nothing to do with excommunication. Again, why do you think the two articles you linked to have anything to do with excommunication? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/25 "2004-04-28T19:52:04Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > Now they place someone who is most likely going to be excommunicated by his church Big freaking deal. First everyone has a problem because he IS Catholic and will be a puppet of the Vatican, then everyone has a problem because he doesn’t support Vatican issues. Make up your minds. I support him for being a religious person with a brain of his own. > [@](#): > > throws medals/ribbons away in protest So farking what? He did something to earn those medals, and he has the right to symbolically throw them away in protest if he so chooses. Getting a medal doesn’t mean that you have to blanketly accept everything that happened. If anything, it is impressive that the man has the cajones to stand up and speak out so strongly about something he believed in, and I think that the pundits and critics lack said bodypart for hiding behind their wall of text and sniping at him for it - ESPECIALLY Bush, with his shining war records. Once again, I’d rather vote for the man who did something heroic and made a statement on the issue. > [@](#): > > and not to mention his voting record “When I am given new information, I change my mind. What do you do with new information?” I’d rather have a candidate who is wish-washy on issues and sways to public interest than one who makes sweeping policy decisions regardless of any external concept of the world resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of humans. But you know, to each his own. ---
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/26 "2004-04-28T19:53:17Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > First, you may want to take a look at this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=252972). It has a good commentary on Kerry and excommunication. Particularly, \*\*Bricker \*\* provides an excellent working definition of excommunication: > > What you linked to is not the Catholic definition of excommunication. Even with your definition, your linked thread STILL have nothing to do with excommunication. > > Again, why do you think the two articles you linked to have anything to do with excommunication? Okay. What do you call denying someone communion? I call that denying them the sacraments. That should be answer enough for all your questions on that. You just argued against yourself! Here’s one more that includes a reference to the denial of the sacraments. [Kerry falls foul of US Catholic leaders | World news | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1190712,00.html) You sure wanted to be proved wrong didn’t you. I’d rather not even discuss this with you anymore. You were wrong and you probably won’t admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/27 "2004-04-28T19:54:30Z")
Okay, I think I see where your confusion is. Here is an excerpt from the [Catholic Encyclopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm)’s definition of Excommunication: > [@](#): > > Excommunication (Lat. ex, out of, and communio or communicatio, communion – **exclusion from the communion** ), the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society. Being a penalty, it supposes guilt; and being the most serious penalty that the Church can inflict, it naturally supposes a very grave offence. It is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness. It necessarily, therefore, contemplates the future, either to prevent the recurrence of certain culpable acts that have grievous external consequences, or, more especially, to induce the delinquent to satisfy the obligations incurred by his offence. Its object and its effect are loss of communion, i.e. of the spiritual benefits shared by all the members of Christian society; hence, it can affect only those who by baptism have been admitted to that society. Undoubtedly there can and do exist other penal measures which entail the loss of certain fixed rights; among them are other censures, e.g. suspension for clerics, interdict for clerics and laymen, irregularity ex delicto, etc. _Excommunication, however, is clearly distinguished from these penalties in that it is the privation of all rights resulting from the social status of the Christian as such._ The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced; he can, however, be considered as an exile from Christian society and as non-existent, for a time at least, in the sight of ecclesiastical authority. But such exile can have an end (and the Church desires it), as soon as the offender has given suitable satisfaction. Meanwhile, his status before the Church is that of a stranger. **He may not participate in public worship nor receive the Body of Christ or any of the sacraments**. Moreover, if he be a cleric, he is forbidden to administer a sacred rite or to exercise an act of spiritual authority. There are two forms of communion being talked about here (which I’ve bolded). The first that I bolded is a reference not to the Eucharist, but to the community of the Church (as used in “the communion of Saints”). The articles you linked to suggest that there are some who believe Kerry should be denied the Eucharist - but they in no way suggest that Kerry be denied participation in the Church or in worship (per the italicized portion). I’m going to have to second lavenderlemon’s query - I suspect you of being a Republican in sheep’s clothing. Your ruse is apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/28 "2004-04-28T19:54:59Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] I get so furshlugginer tired of these kinds of comments. Think what you will about Bush, but he’s not a dumbass, he’s not a moron, he’s not an idiot, he’s not a knukkle-dragging mouth-breather, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum. \*Anyone \* who gets a Bachelor’s Degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard is not dumb…QUOTE] We should probably talk about this. The fact is that Bush is perceived by many as dumb. This is (as far as I can tell) because his public speaking skills are horrid, he does not seem particularly knowledgeable about much and because he makes a lot of weird faces. In other words, he looks and acts stupid. So, is this where we get in to some kind of debate about the different kinds of intelligence? Like he was good at reading textbooks and taking tests but just has a weird looking face and poor public speaking skills? I am willing to entertain the notion, but want to be sure that is what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/29 "2004-04-28T19:56:44Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > Okay. What do you call denying someone communion? I call that denying them the sacraments. That should be answer enough for all your questions on that. You just argued against yourself! Here’s one more that includes a reference to the denial of the sacraments. [Kerry falls foul of US Catholic leaders | World news | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1190712,00.html) > > You sure wanted to be proved wrong didn’t you. I’d rather not even discuss this with you anymore. You were wrong and you probably won’t admit it. You can be denied sacraments without being excommunicated, but you can’t be excommunicated without being denied sacraments. People are denied sacraments all the time - yet you claimed earlier that excommunication is an incredibly rare occurrence. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/30 "2004-04-28T19:58:44Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > My paycheck looks better with Bush than Kerry. Funny, didn’t you just imply in your first post that Kerry’s voting record shows the pattern of someone bought off? Seriously, your political analysis runs the gambit from religious alignment to personal income? Do you have any concept that the economy is more complex than how much money is in your paycheck? “Oooh, it looks shiny on the surface, so it must be good!” Statements like yours are almost enough to make me support that “license to vote” thread from a few weeks ago. Seriously? You’re that much of a blind puppet being bought off by a tax deduction, and you’re proud to shout it to the world? ---
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/31 "2004-04-28T20:01:16Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Big freaking deal. First everyone has a problem because he IS Catholic and will be a puppet of the Vatican, then everyone has a problem because he doesn’t support Vatican issues. Make up your minds. I support him for being a religious person with a brain of his own. > > So farking what? He did something to earn those medals, and he has the right to symbolically throw them away in protest if he so chooses. Getting a medal doesn’t mean that you have to blanketly accept everything that happened. If anything, it is impressive that the man has the cajones to stand up and speak out so strongly about something he believed in, and I think that the pundits and critics lack said bodypart for hiding behind their wall of text and sniping at him for it - ESPECIALLY Bush, with his shining war records. Once again, I’d rather vote for the man who did something heroic and made a statement on the issue. > > “When I am given new information, I change my mind. What do you do with new information?” > > I’d rather have a candidate who is wish-washy on issues and sways to public interest than one who makes sweeping policy decisions regardless of any external concept of the world resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of humans. But you know, to each his own. This stuff may not bother you. Which it obviously doesn’t. And you’re the type of person who says big deal about all this and then will be bitching like crazy when he gets stomped in November. I am voting for KERRY! The whole point of this thread which EVERYONE seems to be changing is why can’t we (Democrats) find someone better? When we stop blindly supporting people like Dean and Kerry and look for someone that will actually win we’ll be alot better off. And if he has such cajones why didn’t he throw his “important” medals away like his purple hearts and that bronze or was it silver star? He did it for publicity. ---
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/32 "2004-04-28T20:06:57Z")
You can think I’m a republican or think what you want of me. You’re the ones following Kerry’s lead without questioning what he’s done. I’m trying to let everyone know we’ve picked a bad candidate. Now, just because we picked him, we all follow along like sheep following the shepherd. Well, I’m not going to. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/33 "2004-04-28T20:15:33Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > You can think I’m a republican or think what you want of me. You’re the ones following Kerry’s lead without questioning what he’s done. I’m trying to let everyone know we’ve picked a bad candidate. Now, just because we picked him, we all follow along like sheep following the shepherd. Well, I’m not going to. > [@ghuff1](#): > > I am voting for KERRY! Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/34 "2004-04-28T20:17:49Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I get so furshlugginer tired of these kinds of comments. Think what you will about Bush, but he’s not a dumbass, he’s not a moron, he’s not an idiot, he’s not a knukkle-dragging mouth-breather, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum. \*Anyone \* who gets a Bachelor’s Degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard is not dumb… How about Princeton? I’ve got a story to tell you about Princeton – if you’ll accept that it is of the same caliber as Harvard and Yale, then I can probably clear off this fog. I went to high school with a girl who was routinely ridiculed for the same sorts of gaffes that Bush makes routinely. When the Biology teacher put a poster “Penises of the Animal Kingdom” on the wall, we stood around snickering and pointing. Now: this poster was _illustrated_. Humans were included. And yet, having seen the poster, and examined it thoroughly, she didn’t understand. She asked, shyly, “What’s a penn-iss?” Now. That may be attributed to a lack of book-learning. Fast forward a year or two. We’re preparing for our pre-calculus final. Notice this! She was in pre-calculus as a senior in high school, and took the Calculus AP exam! However, when the math teacher instructed us to make sure we had fresh batteries in our calculators (these calculators were given to each of us, brand new, batteries included, and each of us had put the batteries in him- or herself) she said “can’t I just take the cover off and leave it in the sun”? Sure, the TI-81 has a large LCD screen. But it’s also got batteries. And nowhere on the calculator does it say “solar.” These are two incidents in a long long line of things we laughed at her for. She was not a fool, but she occasionally made us wonder. She got into Princeton, and has since graduated. They don’t “give out” degrees there, do they? Is the “gentlemen’s C” still being awarded? Maybe I don’t want to know. Anyhow, she isn’t stupid; she’s a hell of a hard worker, and wonderfully kind and quick to grasp new concepts when they’re taught in a classroom. She just misses the boat occasionally, with hilarious results. So I wouldn’t vote her into a decision-making office, and I’m going to hold my nose and vote for whomever the Democrats field against Bush this year. If it’s Kerry, I’ll probably wash my hands when I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/35 "2004-04-28T20:19:29Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Please explain. Explain what? How everyone is defending John Kerry for the stupid things he’s done to bring this on himself. I’m voting for Kerry to vote against Bush. I dislike both candidates. ---
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/36 "2004-04-28T20:22:50Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > How about Princeton? I’ve got a story to tell you about Princeton – if you’ll accept that it is of the same caliber as Harvard and Yale, then I can probably clear off this fog. > > I went to high school with a girl who was routinely ridiculed for the same sorts of gaffes that Bush makes routinely. When the Biology teacher put a poster “Penises of the Animal Kingdom” on the wall, we stood around snickering and pointing. Now: this poster was _illustrated_. Humans were included. And yet, having seen the poster, and examined it thoroughly, she didn’t understand. She asked, shyly, “What’s a penn-iss?” Now. That may be attributed to a lack of book-learning. > > Fast forward a year or two. We’re preparing for our pre-calculus final. Notice this! She was in pre-calculus as a senior in high school, and took the Calculus AP exam! However, when the math teacher instructed us to make sure we had fresh batteries in our calculators (these calculators were given to each of us, brand new, batteries included, and each of us had put the batteries in him- or herself) she said “can’t I just take the cover off and leave it in the sun”? Sure, the TI-81 has a large LCD screen. But it’s also got batteries. And nowhere on the calculator does it say “solar.” > > These are two incidents in a long long line of things we laughed at her for. She was not a fool, but she occasionally made us wonder. She got into Princeton, and has since graduated. They don’t “give out” degrees there, do they? Is the “gentlemen’s C” still being awarded? Maybe I don’t want to know. > > Anyhow, she isn’t stupid; she’s a hell of a hard worker, and wonderfully kind and quick to grasp new concepts when they’re taught in a classroom. She just misses the boat occasionally, with hilarious results. So I wouldn’t vote her into a decision-making office, and I’m going to hold my nose and vote for whomever the Democrats field against Bush this year. If it’s Kerry, I’ll probably wash my hands when I’m done. This is excellent. This is exactly the kind of answer I wanted. You are an open-minded democrat and you’re honest with yourself. Anyone that defends John Kerry outright is not being honest with themselves to start with. Thank you very much for this excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![ghuff1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@ghuff1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ghuff1)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/37 "2004-04-28T20:24:02Z")
sorry about including all the text there…that was an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/38 "2004-04-28T20:31:42Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > He earned them along with all the other people that have them who aren’t qualified to be president. Just having a good education is, as GWB makes it, obviously not what makes a good president. Getting a couple of things intermingled here, aren’t you? I said I get tired of people saying he’s stupid, he’s a moron, dumb, idiot, etc. I didn’t say having a good education automatically makes a good president. ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/39 "2004-04-28T20:39:16Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > You can think I’m a republican or think what you want of me. Personally, the word _I’d_ use begins with “T.” But YMMV. > [@](#): > > You’re the ones following Kerry’s lead without questioning what he’s done. Pardon the repetition, but, uh, _cite?_ I didn’t read anything in this thread to suggest that. Mostly what I’ve read is you flying off half-cocked, and other people trying to figure out what the heck you’re talking about. What _exactly_ are you debating here? > [@](#): > > I’m trying to let everyone know we’ve picked a bad candidate. Whom would you recommend instead of Kerry or Dean? Who do you think can “actually win”? And how can you say these are “bad” candidates? Apparently there are a lot of Democrats in this country who disagree with you, since somebody obviously voted for these people. > [@](#): > > Now, just because we picked him, we all follow along like sheep following the shepherd. Well, I’m not going to. Pardon my snark, but would you like a medal for that, or just a chest to pin it on? (Reference to Sen. Kerry unfortunately unavoidable.) There’s not much of a debate here. Hell, I can’t even figure out the _question._ On preview … > [@](#): > > Anyone that defends John Kerry outright is not being honest with themselves to start with. Excuse me, but WTF? I can defend Kerry outright on the basis of one thing alone: he isn’t GWB. (Two things, if I can count that he doesn’t look like a chimp in a suit when he gives a public address.) I am brutally honest with myself. He’s not my Malibu Barbie Dream Candidate[sup]TM[/sup], no, but he’s not the worst possible candidate either. Seriously, dude, what are you talking about? If you just want a bunch of random assorted Kerry-bashing, maybe you should check out the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526/40 "2004-04-28T20:42:09Z")
**ghuff1:** Read your OP again. Focus on the last sentence. Here it is: > [@](#): > > Either way (_Kerry’s_) voting record lost my vote. Then you said you were voting for Kerry. Then you said the people voting for Kerry were sheep, and you aren’t a sheep, which I took to mean you were back to not voting for him. Either you’re voting for Kerry or you’re not. If you are voting for Kerry, then what’s your beef with other people that are going to vote for him? More importantly, what was the purpose of starting a thread wherein you claimed that Kerry had lost your vote? If you’re not going to vote for Kerry, you probably should avoid statements like “I am voting for KERRY!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-no-winners/242526.md?page=3)