# Democrats: Please Don Not Nominate Hillary!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389 "2007-08-13T00:50:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/61 "2007-08-13T15:11:25Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] How many votes did she [Condoleezza] get? We know the answer to that one. [/QUOTE] I really think that’s a straw man because Hillary hasn’t gotten any votes for president either. A more fair comparison would be a poll in which they are put up against each other. And in at least [one such poll](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/10/6/90040.shtml), they are neck-and-neck. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/62 "2007-08-13T15:18:12Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I really think that’s a straw man because Hillary hasn’t gotten any votes for president either. A more fair comparison would be a poll in which they are put up against each other. And in at least [one such poll](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/10/6/90040.shtml), they are neck-and-neck. [/QUOTE] I’ve got to disagree, here - Condi may be electable, but you can’t make an effective comparison between her and Hillary. The fact remains that one **is** campaigning for the election, while the other isn’t. That a fantasy-league poll shows them to be of near equal popularity is interesting, but doesn’t change that one actually is a contender, while the other isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/63 "2007-08-13T15:19:23Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] That a fantasy-league poll shows them to be of near equal popularity is interesting, but doesn’t change that one actually is a contender, while the other isn’t. [/QUOTE] And that’s an interesting observation, but has nothing to do with the comment to which I responded. 🙂 ETA: If you still want to pin your observation that they can’t be compared on someone, you can repost it to **RTFirefly**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/64 "2007-08-13T15:21:45Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] I would vote for Clinton or Obama, but I don’t think they can win. What is important since the last elections were so close, is bringing voters from the other side, and the other side is a bunch of red necks or wealthy bastards who wouldn’t vote for a woman or a Black man if Hell froze over. [/QUOTE] No. Neither party is going to get much of “the other side”, but both are going to fight over the center. Are you going to tell us that the center is full of such people? I haven’t watched Meet the Press yet (I have recorder) from Sunday, but it looks like an interesting debate between Harold Ford (DLC) and the Daily Kos guy (I can never remember how to spell his name) over the future of the Democratic party. Should be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/65 "2007-08-13T15:28:53Z")
Oh, as for the OP: Underestimate Hillary at your own peril. She’s definitely electable, at least in this cycle. The Republicans are acting like they WANT to lose the way things are going. Personally, I prefer Obama over Hillary, but I think she’d make a perfectly good president. And she’s running a much better campaign right now-- partly because Obama is lobbing so many balls right over the plate so she can knock them out of the park. She’s basically running the general election right now, probably because she’s so confident she’ll get the nomination. So why piss off the center by moving too far left now? BTW, carnivorousplant: Don’t be so sure that part of the Dem’s base isn’t a source of prejudice, either. How many middle aged, white male union guys are itching to have a female or Black president? I’m sure there are more than a few who aren’t too thrilled at the prospect. Normally I would agree with the OP, but this election cycle is different-- mainly thanks to one George W. Bush who has left the GOP in shambles. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/66 "2007-08-13T16:50:52Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Wow. Do you guys really believe that the right is full of queer-hatin’ rednecks and wealthy bastards who are prejudiced against women and blacks? [/QUOTE] Not **exclusively,** no, but the right is where most of those have ended up. Especially since the success of Nixon’s [Southern Strategy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/67 "2007-08-13T16:53:49Z")
I’m of the “libertarian” wing of the Republican party and completely fed up with the Neocons and Christian Right. I’ll be voting for Ron Paul in the primary, and then for the Democrat or third party in the general (in the likely event Paul doesn’t win the candidacy). I will _happily_ vote for Hillary, assuming she’s as centrist as Bill was (that is, she doesn’t take any sharp turns leftward). She’s an excellent campaigner and I think the middle-of-the-road populace will vote for her. The country is ready for a major change of direction and Hillary is everything that Bush is not. The Democrats win when they run centrist candidates. The 2006 election showed this. Hillary and Obama seem to know it. Edwards is running a populist campaign. That didn’t work in 2000 and it won’t work in 2008. Richardson doesn’t have the exposure to win the candidacy, but he’ll do well as V.P. or waiting until 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/68 "2007-08-13T17:00:41Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] However, no Republican woman or black who has wielded power has ever gotten to their position by way of a popular vote. There is no Republican Conyers or Stokes or Pelosi. (There is a Snowe, but she is from Maine where they might not realize how Republicans are supposed to act–certainly, most of her good press is from Democratic sources.) I suspect that that is not a mere accident. [/quote] I’ll give Liz Dole a call and tell her she wasn’t really elected to the Senate, just as soon as I get off the phone with Lisa Murkowski. She’s yammering something about being Deputy Whip. Then I’ll call Susan Collins, the OTHER Republican Senator from Maine. Since you’ve already acknowledged Snowe, maybe I can get her to call Kay Hutchinson of Texas for me. > [@](#): > > I don’t buy into the “rednecks and rich people” theme that I suspect is fueled as much by emotion as careful analysis, but until the Republicans actually field a woman or black as a major candidate, then I think that the emotion taps into a real aspect of U.S. politics. By “major candidate” - what do you mean? The Democrats have never fielded a black American of either sex for the Presidency, and never fielded a woman, either. It’s true that Geraldine Ferraro was offered as a VP candidate in 1984, after serving only 6 years as a Representative, where she had such powerful committee assignments as Public Works, Budget, and Post Office. I think the Republicans have been as good, if not better, at appointing people of color to cabinet posts and judicial posts. The first woman to sit on the Supreme Court was appointed by a Republican. All that said… you’re right. Inaccurate perception hurts both parties in different areas. The Democrats are seen as weak on defense, for example, even in the absence of careful analysis; the result is they must work harder to be credible in that area and overcome the GOP advantage. By the same token, the Republicans are seen as weak on inclusion of minorities, even in the absence of careful analysis, and they must fight an uphill battle to reach equal credibility in this area. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/69 "2007-08-13T17:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Underestimate Hillary at your own peril. [/QUOTE] I agree. She’s a smart, tough woman who has been through the political wars already. Everything, including the kitchen sink, has already been thrown at her, and she’s shown she can take a licking and keep on ticking, as the saying goes. If she’s the nominee, I’m convinced she will find a way to win the election. I doubt that anything can be said at this point, that hasn’t _already_ been said a thousand times over, to change anyone’s mind against her in a general election. She’s really got nowhere to go but up, and she’s already doing OK in the [head-to-head matchups](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html). The main benefit to the GOP of a Hillary run is that the GOP base most certainly will turn out to vote against Hillary. If it’s Giuliani or Romney v. Obama or Edwards, a lot of them might just stay home this time. But if it’s Hillary, they’ll crawl to the polls if they have to, to vote against her. I’m surprised nobody’s found a way to I still think Hillary will win, but I dread her effect on down-ticket races. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/70 "2007-08-13T17:03:48Z")
By the way – it’s possible I could vote for Mrs. Clinton. She’s a reasonable centrist. I might go for her over certain Republicans now in the running. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/71 "2007-08-13T17:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] I’m really frightened that my former governor Mike Huckabee came in second in the Iowa straw poll …\… Anti-Semite [/QUOTE] What?!?! Cite. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/72 "2007-08-13T18:07:04Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Yes, that’s exactly what I believe. The right, in my opinion, is primarily composed of scum. On the whole, they are the ignorant, the bigoted, the stupid, the foolish, the criminal, the greedy, the malignant, and the crazy. The worst America has to offer; that’s the Right. Those are the people the Republicans have spent decades building a power base out of. [/QUOTE] I recall reading somewhere in the SDMB rules or FAQs that it is good to let a poster know when you think they’ve done a good job of making their point or conveying their beliefs, as it might result in more postings of that caliber. So, I allow me to let you know how much I loved what you wrote here. Keep up the good work! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/73 "2007-08-13T18:13:48Z")
Question for all, but particularly those more likely to vote for a Dem in 2008: why no mention of Biden? As an Independent leaning right, I find him the most likeable of the candidates. I could almost see voting for him, or Dodd, two guys with a lot of experience. I think Hillary is crazy smart, but unelectable. Obama? Too green. Richardson, not a bad choice, but will probably wind up with the VP slot. The one guy who makes me cringe, though, is Edwards. I’d rather have any of the candidates, or Gore, rather than him. But again, what’s your take on Biden? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/74 "2007-08-13T18:21:25Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] What?!?! Cite. [/QUOTE] I think he is referring to an incident where Huckabee said the following on Imus in the Morning, responding to a joke about his weight loss: > [@](#): > > “I have just come out of six weeks at a concentration camp held by the Democrat Party of Arkansas in an undisclosed location, making a hostage tape,” Huckabee said. “That’s why I look that way.” [http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2592474](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2592474) That’s not anti-Semitic, but there are plenty of other perfectly good words for it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/75 "2007-08-13T18:37:26Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Question for all, but particularly those more likely to vote for a Dem in 2008: why no mention of Biden? As an Independent leaning right, I find him the most likeable of the candidates. I could almost see voting for him, or Dodd, two guys with a lot of experience. I think Hillary is crazy smart, but unelectable. Obama? Too green. Richardson, not a bad choice, but will probably wind up with the VP slot. The one guy who makes me cringe, though, is Edwards. I’d rather have any of the candidates, or Gore, rather than him. But again, what’s your take on Biden? [/QUOTE] These threads may interest you: [Does Biden have a chance against Hillary and Obama](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=406371&highlight=biden) [The silence on Biden is deafening](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=406586&highlight=biden) ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/76 "2007-08-13T18:41:35Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Question for all, but particularly those more likely to vote for a Dem in 2008: why no mention of Biden? As an Independent leaning right, I find him the most likeable of the candidates. I could almost see voting for him, or Dodd, two guys with a lot of experience. I think Hillary is crazy smart, but unelectable. Obama? Too green. Richardson, not a bad choice, but will probably wind up with the VP slot. The one guy who makes me cringe, though, is Edwards. I’d rather have any of the candidates, or Gore, rather than him. But again, what’s your take on Biden? [/QUOTE] Because he has no shot. He’s running for VP as well. The Democratic nominee will be Obama or Clinton or Edwards (if something crazy happens). Gore would be in there if he wanted to be, but it’s pretty evident he doesn’t. Besides, Biden has the presense of Michael Dukakis. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/77 "2007-08-13T18:52:37Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] The only two on that list who qualify as “wielding power” were Smith and Kassebaum. [/quote] So members of Congress and governors don’t wield power? Fine, by that standard no **Democratic** woman or black who has wielded power has ever gotten to their position after a popular election. Certainly not Hilary, who only got into the Senate on her husband’s coattails. > [@](#): > > Since I did not claim that no elected Republican was ever a woman or black, your haste to try to find fault has demonstrated my point. You said, and I quote - > [@](#): > > However, no Republican woman or black who has wielded power has ever gotten to their position by way of a popular vote. It was a ridiculous statement, and you are attempting a fairly lame no-true-Scotsman argument, as predicted. Oh, and by the way - you mentioned Pelosi as a person who is wielding power. Could you mention the popular vote that made her Speaker of the House? I thought a popular vote was how she got into Congress, where (apparently) she didn’t wield any power, until she got to be Speaker. This seems to be in contrast to, say, Christine Whitman, who did wield power after a popular vote. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/78 "2007-08-13T18:53:11Z")
Thanks, **Mr. Mace**. Very interesting. **Lamar Mundane** , I’m surprised to hear you compare his personality to that of Dukakis. I find Biden quite likeable. Others I know have volunteered the same observation. But they were on the right, so maybe that plays into it. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/79 "2007-08-13T18:57:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Question for all, but particularly those more likely to vote for a Dem in 2008: why no mention of Biden? As an Independent leaning right, I find him the most likeable of the candidates. You answered your own question. Anyone who appeals to an “independent leaning right” (and I think you do a little more than _lean_) isn’t going to appeal to the Democratic mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389/80 "2007-08-13T19:07:37Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] While the conventional political wisdom may say that a black man, or a woman, cannot win the election, [/QUOTE] I believe that a black or a woman can win the White House, I just don’t think that Obama or Clinton can win the White House in 2008, and part of the reason is the race/sex issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-please-don-not-nominate-hillary/415389.md?page=5)