# Democrats push to make gun control a 2018 issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 20, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184 "2018-02-20T10:33:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/81 "2018-02-21T15:40:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you still feel as if this is unique to gun rights supporters, after reading post #77? > > Regards, > Shodan So, what in that post was false, or so great an exaggeration that it might as well be a falsehood? There’s a big difference between _claiming_ something is an existential threat, and _describing_ an existential threat. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/82 "2018-02-21T15:41:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you still feel as if this is unique to gun rights supporters, after reading post #77? Yes. Being against gun violence, even very passionately or hyperbolically so, doesn’t require the presupposition of imminent and permanent threat from a dangerous enemy in order to make sense. But being in favor of treating private gun ownership as not just another form of property but rather a necessary fundamental right, which is essential to the continuation of a society’s liberty and security, does. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/83 "2018-02-21T15:43:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As point out - why do so many Republican polices result in dead children? Why do so many Democratic policies result in death? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/84 "2018-02-21T15:48:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So, what in that post was false, or so great an exaggeration that it might as well be a falsehood? > [@Broomstick](#): > > If they continue to maintain power we’ll all be dead, shot by a fellow American while going about our lives, or trying to. Yes, they are treasonous, they have failed to enact even the smallest protections against the worst tools of violence. Right there. It’s IMPOSSIBLE that we’ll be dead due to guns. And lack of gun control regulations does not come anywhere near meeting the definition of treason. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/85 "2018-02-21T15:50:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This is the toxicity of Second Amendment ideology, rather than gun ownership in and of itself, which when practiced by non-ideologues is largely harmless and manageable. Second Amendment ideologues are committed to the fantasy that the mere possession of a gun automatically carries with it an intrinsic connection to heroism, patriotism and liberty. In order to sustain that fantasy, they require somebody in the role of a dangerous enemy that their guns are crucially needed to defend against. This is the toxicity of First Amendment ideology, rather than the Press in and of itself, which when practiced by non-ideologues is largely harmless and manageable.First Amendment ideologues are committed to the fantasy that the mere possession of a Printing press or newspaper or even a blog automatically carries with it an intrinsic connection to heroism, patriotism and liberty. In order to sustain that fantasy, they require somebody in the role of a dangerous enemy that their writings are crucially needed to defend against. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/86 "2018-02-21T16:00:05Z")
One of the GOP’s strengths over the past 40 years has been their willingness to take strong stands. People like leaders who take strong stands; people aren’t so crazy about leaders who equivocate about the issues of the day. I’ve been saying for years ([here’s one from 15 years ago](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=142909)) that the Dems’ big problem is their tendency to avoid strong stands on many issues. If it’s not clear that you intend to do much of anything about a problem, people aren’t going to come out of the woodwork to vote for you on that account. There are a lot more people who want these shootings to stop happening, than there are pro-gun people. The problem is, the pro-gun people vote; other than perhaps the pro-Israel folks, there aren’t any issue groups that can match them for intensity. They’ll show up at the polls, in good years and bad. So the question is, how do you get the anti-massacre people to vote? You do it by taking a strong stand against the weapons of mass slaughter. You don’t do it by saying we need better background checks. (You can still say it and mean it, but it better be down the list, rather than at the top. Because it’s not going to be the stand that will get the large anti-massacre majority to the polls.) So if the Dems are willing to take a strong stand, then yeah, let’s roll with this issue. But they’d better not try to throw weak sauce at it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/87 "2018-02-21T16:01:11Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’s IMPOSSIBLE that we’ll be dead due to guns. ?! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/88 "2018-02-21T16:04:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No, they pose an existential threat to our _lives_ > . Perhaps. About 8000 people are murdered each year by guns. About 2% by “assault weapons” , so 160. Four times as many were stabbed to death. 500,000 American die each year due to smoking- 50,000 due to second hand smoke. You are 300 times more likely to die from Second Hand smoke than by a assault weapon. That chain smoker who lives in the apartmnet beneath you is more dangerous that the guy with a collection of “assualt weapons”. 15000 die from Prescription Opioid abuse. Alcohol kills 80,000 or so. Traffic accidents kill over 40000. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/89 "2018-02-21T16:07:31Z")
And we’re trying to reduce all those other problems too. Why should one be exempt? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/90 "2018-02-21T16:15:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And we’re trying to reduce all those other problems too. Why should one be exempt? Becuase it has protection in the Second Ad, which the others dont have. And indeed, we are trying to reduce murders and violence. Just not by putting law abiding citizen gun owners in prison for crimes their guns might possibly commit. Extra police, extra sentencing for gun use during the commission of a crime, better forensics to catch killers, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/91 "2018-02-21T16:18:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Perhaps. About 8000 people are murdered each year by guns. About 2% by “assault weapons” , so 160. Four times as many were stabbed to death. > > 500,000 American die each year due to smoking- 50,000 due to second hand smoke. You are 300 times more likely to die from Second Hand smoke than by a assault weapon. That chain smoker who lives in the apartmnet beneath you is more dangerous that the guy with a collection of “assualt weapons”. > > 15000 die from Prescription Opioid abuse. Alcohol kills 80,000 or so. Traffic accidents kill over 40000. If your point was that for all of those things, we just throw up our hands to give thoughts and prayers, rather than doing something about it, then you’d have a point about it. As we address all of those problems with actual actions to reduce the harm that those do, your analogy breaks down upon the very first observation. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/92 "2018-02-21T16:24:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Becuase it has protection in the Second Ad, which the others dont have. And exactly what protection does the Second Amendment give to weapons of mass slaughter? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/93 "2018-02-21T16:29:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This is the toxicity of First Amendment ideology, rather than the Press in and of itself, which when practiced by non-ideologues is largely harmless and manageable.First Amendment ideologues are committed to the fantasy that the mere possession of a Printing press or newspaper or even a blog automatically carries with it an intrinsic connection to heroism, patriotism and liberty. In order to sustain that fantasy, they require somebody in the role of a dangerous enemy that their writings are crucially needed to defend against. So you would say the ACLU is the flip side of the coin to the NRA? Or are you just testing your find text and replace skills? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/94 "2018-02-21T16:30:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In order to sustain that fantasy, they require somebody in the role of a dangerous enemy that their writings are crucially needed to defend against. The analogy’s not convincing because the desirability of freedom of expression **doesn’t** actually depend on positing an oppressive enemy. People like to speak their minds and express their beliefs whether other people are trying to oppress them or not, and that’s what fundamentally motivates the formulation of the First Amendment. Contrast that with the Second Amendment’s elevation of one particular form of property possession, that of firearms, to a constitutional right **explicitly necessitated by the security needs of the state**. An enemy to be defended against is the whole _raison d’etre_ of that right. You can see the difference right there in the wording of the Amendments: > [@](#): > > 1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. > > 2. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/95 "2018-02-21T16:32:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > ?! It’s right there in post #77. The claim was made that if the “treasonous GOP” remains in power, we’ll ALL be shot to death. All 327 million of us? Doesn’t that seem like a rather extreme exaggeration? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/96 "2018-02-21T16:42:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If your point was that for all of those things, we just throw up our hands to give thoughts and prayers, rather than doing something about it, then you’d have a point about it. > > As we address all of those problems with actual actions to reduce the harm that those do, your analogy breaks down upon the very first observation. You forgot the rest of my reply: “And indeed, we are trying to reduce murders and violence. Just not by putting law abiding citizen gun owners in prison for crimes their guns might possibly commit. Extra police, extra sentencing for gun use during the commission of a crime, better forensics to catch killers, and so forth.” It’s not just "thoughts and prayers’ we are working daily to try to reduce violent crime. But reducing guns does NOT reduce violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/97 "2018-02-21T16:44:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And exactly what protection does the Second Amendment give to weapons of mass slaughter? It gives none, Machineguns, explosives, cannon etc are effectively banned. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/98 "2018-02-21T16:44:34Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’s right there in post #77. The claim was made that if the “treasonous GOP” remains in power, we’ll ALL be shot to death. > > All 327 million of us? > > Doesn’t that seem like a rather extreme exaggeration? So you recognize hyperbole, you just don’t understand it? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/99 "2018-02-21T16:50:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So you recognize hyperbole, you just don’t understand it? I understand it just fine, thank you. However, it appears that other posters in this thread do not. Here’s a hint: there is a difference between hyperbole, and bs. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184/100 "2018-02-21T17:16:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You forgot the rest of my reply: “And indeed, we are trying to reduce murders and violence. Just not by putting law abiding citizen gun owners in prison for crimes their guns might possibly commit. Extra police, extra sentencing for gun use during the commission of a crime, better forensics to catch killers, and so forth.” > > > [@](#): > > > > We are not asking for law abindg citizens to be put in jail for crimes that their guns might possibly commit. Please point out anyone who has said that. > > > > You are looking at after the fact. After a person is shot, then we will get tough on the shooter. That doesn’t do much good for the people who are shot. Most mass shooters kill themselves at the end. What possible extra sentencing will cuase them to change their minds? > > It’s not just "thoughts and prayers’ we are working daily to try to reduce violent crime. But reducing guns does NOT reduce violent crime. No, you are working to increase the punishments for violent crime, which is something that has never had an effect. We can’t tell if reducing guns would have an effect, as it’s never been tried in the US. > [@DrDeth](#): > > It gives none, Machineguns, explosives, cannon etc are effectively banned. There are those on this very board who would like to see the machine gun registry opened up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-push-to-make-gun-control-a-2018-issue/809184.md?page=6)