# Demonic Free Will **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2007, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701 "2007-04-26T06:36:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/21 "2007-04-26T15:20:53Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] This is just part and parcel of the larger incoherent free will debate. [/QUOTE] Yes it is, you should have been able to tell by the title of the thread. Thanks for giving us your permission. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/22 "2007-04-26T15:24:21Z")
Some time ago I posted a question asking if fallen angels could be forgiven. \*\*Cunctator \*\*told us that according to Catholic Catechism, fallen angels cannot repent. The quote was: > [@](#): > > 393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”\* His link is: [Catholic Catechism](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm) From that I infer that they had free will, but having made the choice cannot go back. (At least according to the Catholic Church.) [If interested, link to my question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346818&highlight=fallen) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/23 "2007-04-26T16:03:30Z")
Angels, fallen Angels, Demons and Christians who have ‘seen the light and received the gift from heaven and have shared in the Holy Spirit’ can make (or have made) a informed decision. All above know the power of God and they are free to reject it. For demons and fallen angels they already made their choice, and as pointed out above there is no return. I would guess since their view of God and morality is suppose to be crystal clear and single sin would put them into this state. For humans, we start out not knowing much, if any, of God’s or Satan’s ways. We stumble in and out of sin as we simply can not see, we can not make a informed choice at this point and all can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus. As one grows spiritually in God they may achieve this point where they can make a informed choice and can chose to deny the Spirit of God - the unpardonable sin. The acceptance of the mark of the beast also appears to be unpardonable for humans, but doesn’t apply to already condemned demons. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/24 "2007-04-26T16:13:48Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Yes it is, you should have been able to tell by the title of the thread. Thanks for giving us your permission. [/QUOTE] This response doesn’t make a lot of sense. Again, you are having a discussion based on confusion: on concepts of choice that don’t make any sense. It’s not going to go anywhere until you figure out what a choice is and how its made by different sorts of beings. Lacking that, all you are doing is telling stories with no coherent explanation behind them. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/25 "2007-04-26T16:33:36Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Again, you are having a discussion based on confusion [/QUOTE] Actually this is a good point. In a religious context free will can be defined as willingness to serve God or not (to serve Satan, or self), but in a lesser sense could mean freedom of action to decide how to serve. Under this definition demons can’t serve God, as they can not know how to serve God because God is not going to tell them how. They can serve Satan or self, they can also guess how to serve God, but that’s not from God, but from self. For people, in a secular sense, free will is the ability to freely chose and act, ironically without God (or Satan) this version of free will just ends up as self serving and is not free will in the context above. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/26 "2007-04-26T16:37:40Z")
**Apos** , did you read the OP? I bolded and everything. [QUOTE=kanicbird] The racist label that Mr. Dribble slapped on me [/QUOTE] I did say “almost racist” - c’mon, you were literally demonising the WWII Japanese! And it’s **MrDibble** , if you’d be so kind - this isn’t the Pit, and this thread is not a Pitting of your ideas, I just wanted some more clarity. I think I’ve gotten that - demons had their chance, and are now past redemption, so infor a penny, in for a pound (to paraphrase). That’s a coherent worldview as far as it goes (leaving out issues of eternal punishment vs. Love & Mercy, which are a separate issue), so thanks for everyone who replied. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/27 "2007-04-26T16:46:43Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] an orc raised by humans might have turned out good or neutral ( in my games ). [/QUOTE] “Nothing personal folks, but that is one fucking ugly kid ya got there!” Imagine the Orc raised by humans trying to get a date. Brining home his school photos. Gross!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/28 "2007-04-26T16:54:22Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] As a mystical catholic and somewhat believing in angels/demons/what-have-you, IMO demons have free will but are unclouded in their views of God, Satan, and morality. They choose evil and like doing evil. Of course they are free to do non-evil acts, but why would they? That’s my brief two cents. [/QUOTE] Well, if they are free to do non-evil acts (I assume you mean “good” or is it just “non-evil”?) there must surely be an occasional demon who exercises that freedom and crosses over to the side of God and Cardinal Ratzinger (sorry, Pope Benedict). I mean, look at the power of God compared to Satan. You’re not going to tell me that some demons have not wised up and switched teams over the ages? By your own admission, an angel can become a demon. That is after all what Lucifer is, right? So why couln’t it work the other way? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/29 "2007-04-26T16:56:19Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] I did say “almost racist” - c’mon, you were literally demonising the WWII Japanese! [/QUOTE] I did specify the Japanese warriors, not all of the Japaneses people, and again because of the strong comparison of the structure. And my apology for using ‘Mr. Dribble’, no offense was intended, most of the time I copy and paste the username, that time I just typed what I thought it was. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/30 "2007-04-26T17:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] I mean, look at the power of God compared to Satan. You’re not going to tell me that some demons have not wised up and switched teams over the ages? By your own admission, an angel can become a demon. That is after all what Lucifer is, right? So why couln’t it work the other way? [/QUOTE] It depends on how you care to define good. -If good is pro-God then no, a demon has no way of knowing what is of God. For ‘God is one’. -If good is anti-Satan then probably a demon can oppose Satan As I pointed out in the other thread, demons sometimes take on the roll of false gods, and as such form their own religions. As ‘gods’ or ‘god’ of the religion they create they can make rules and commandments we consider to be good, like ‘thou shalt not blow your leaves onto your neighbors yard’. We would consider this a good rule to live by, and seems like the demon is serving ‘good’. In reality what this demon is doing is leading people away from the true God however. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/31 "2007-04-26T17:18:59Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] By your own admission, an angel can become a demon. [/QUOTE] A point of clarity, in most of Christian demonology the counterparts are angel/fallen angel, demons are not fallen angels, but separate earthbound creatures. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/32 "2007-04-26T17:27:44Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] A point of clarity, in most of Christian demonology the counterparts are angel/fallen angel, demons are not fallen angels, but separate earthbound creatures. [/QUOTE] Most Christian teaching on demons that I’ve heard tho does tend to “fallen angel=demon”. There are alternate views of demons as fallen elementals, pre-Adamic humans or souls of wicked departed humans. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/33 "2007-04-26T17:38:28Z")
see post below ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/34 "2007-04-26T17:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Most Christian teaching on demons that I’ve heard tho does tend to “fallen angel=demon” [/QUOTE] It is because demons appear to be earthbound that makes it unlikely that they are fallen angels. Fallen angels still are in ‘the heavenly places’ Eph 6:12, demons don’t appear to be anything but earthbound, unless you define a hierarchy of lesser and greater demons, which is already usually done in one form or another. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/35 "2007-04-26T18:27:58Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Most Christian teaching on demons that I’ve heard tho does tend to “fallen angel=demon”. There are alternate views of demons as fallen elementals, pre-Adamic humans or souls of wicked departed humans. [/QUOTE] It’s been a while since I read the Bible, what is the scriptural basis for the alternate views? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/36 "2007-04-26T18:54:14Z")
I beleive C. S. Lewis would say it a bit differently. The Fallen rejected God and all his gifts; he has nothing more to give them except everything, and they’ve already refused that. He won’t let them annoy Angels nor the Saved, but in any case, the Gates of Hell are locked from the _inside_. They don’t want out; they want to keep frm coming _in_. And God, if despising their choice, accepts it. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/37 "2007-04-26T19:07:39Z")
Let’s bring out the big Milton (Paradise Lost) gun: Me miserable! which way shall I fly Infinite wrath, and infinite despair? Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And, in the lowest deep, a lower deep Still threatening to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heaven. **O, then, at last relent: Is there no place Left for repentance, none for pardon left? None left but by submission**; and that word Disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame Among the Spirits beneath, whom I seduced With other promises and other vaunts Than to submit, boasting I could subdue The Omnipotent. Ay me! they little know How dearly I abide that boast so vain, Under what torments inwardly I groan, While they adore me on the throne of Hell. With diadem and scepter high advanced, The lower still I fall, only supreme In misery: Such joy ambition finds. **But say I could repent, and could obtain, By act of grace, my former state**; how soon Would highth recall high thoughts, how soon unsay What feigned submission swore? Ease would recant Vows made in pain, as violent and void. For never can true reconcilement grow, Where wounds of deadly hate have pierced so deep: Which would but lead me to a worse relapse And heavier fall: so should I purchase dear Short intermission bought with double smart. **This knows my Punisher; therefore as far From granting he, as I from begging, peace;** All hope excluded thus, behold, in stead Mankind created, and for him this world. So farewell, hope; and with hope farewell, fear; Farewell, remorse! all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good; by thee at least Divided empire with Heaven’s King I hold, By thee, and more than half perhaps will reign; As Man ere long, and this new world, shall know. This seems to imply that Satan still has free will to repent, but then we also have: Him who disobeys, Me disobeys, breaks union, and that day, Cast out from God and blessed vision, falls Into utter darkness, deep ingulfed, his place **Ordained without redemption, without end**. So, Milton seems to posit demonic free will, but is not clear on whether repentance would do any good. And there is simply no answer on what it means to have free will in the first place if you were created by a God who knows in advance that you will rebel. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/38 "2007-04-26T19:08:32Z")
[QUOTE=Scumpup] It’s been a while since I read the Bible, what is the scriptural basis for the alternate views? [/QUOTE] Eph 6:12 has the ‘principalities and powers’ in the heavenlies. These are the fallen angels, and perhaps another class of creatures which don’t have a direct English translation, but between demon and fallen angel. Either way these 2 creature types are in the ‘heavenlies’. Also this uses the words we wrestle with, or we struggle against (principalities and powers), no where does Jesus indicate we should do that with demons, we should confront the demons, we are given authority over them. Demons OTOH have never been mentioned of ascending or descending from heavenly reasons. In Mt 12:43-44 Jesus mentions what a demon does after he is cast out - roam around ‘dry places’ looking for some rest, if no rest is found he returns to his former ‘victim’ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/39 "2007-04-26T19:16:25Z")
In Islamic mythology, Shaitan/Iblis is not an angel, fallen or otherwise, but a [djinn.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djinn#Djinn_in_Islam) The difference being: Angels have no free will and therefore **cannot** rebel against the will of God; but djinn have free will, and can. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701/40 "2007-04-26T19:24:20Z")
[QUOTE=Scumpup] It’s been a while since I read the Bible, what is the scriptural basis for the alternate views? [/QUOTE] My post #38 goes to why I think that demons are not fallen angels, and did scripturally support that demons seem to be earthbound. But some of what we think demons are comes from the choice of the word ‘demon’ itself, well the Greek word daimonion which is derived from daimon ( δαιμων ). A daimon is a creature that acts on earth carrying out the will of the ‘gods’ (principalities and powers). So a demon is not a fallen angel because demon had a prior definition of something else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonic-free-will/401701.md?page=3)