# Demonology- Are there demons who do whatever they want? Bad and good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844 "2016-09-25T17:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/61 "2016-09-26T16:36:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To the OP: how do you know it was a demon and not a ghost, fairy, jinn or kami? Because Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/62 "2016-09-26T17:37:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’m sure controlling (or even influencing) a platoon of demons would be highly profitable. Nobody’s done it. [Now that we’re in GD] Although maybe Trump comes close? 😃 Well, there was Maxwell … ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/63 "2016-09-26T17:43:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because Jesus? Many people who claim to be “spiritual” instead of religious have no problem incorporating fairies and the like into their worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/64 "2016-09-26T17:49:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The OP claims not to follow any particular religion, but also claims to talk with the Archangel Michael(which could lead one to think that her/his demons are Christian-based), and on top of it all claims to have psychic powers. I’m not about to extrapolate _anything_ from that mish-mash until the OP clarifies exactly what she/he claims is going on. Isn’t that basically like saying: Okay OP, before we can have an intelligent conversation about this, I need to know… where you talking to the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/65 "2016-09-26T17:52:53Z")
> [@Ifill](#): > > 1. Are there demons who do bad AND good things if they feel like it? In order to answer that question, you must first show conclusive proof of the existence of demons. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/66 "2016-09-26T17:54:30Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Isn’t that basically like saying: Okay OP, before we can have an intelligent conversation about this, I need to know… where you talking to the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? No-it’s like saying “I’m sorry, but saying you have psychic powers and talk with Archangel Michael is not a good way to make us believe you have problems with demons.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/67 "2016-09-26T17:55:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > In order to answer that question, you must first show conclusive proof of the existence of demons. Even some evidence would be nice, for a start-I’m a reasonable guy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/68 "2016-09-26T18:19:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > In order to answer that question, you must first show conclusive proof of the existence of demons. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Even some evidence would be nice, for a start-I’m a reasonable guy. > **[7 Bizarre Witch Trial Tests | HISTORY](https://www.history.com/news/7-bizarre-witch-trial-tests)** > > From barbaric tortures and occult dessert dishes to unwinnable trials by ordeal, find out more about seven unusual tests once used as evidence of supernatural misconduct. > [@](#): > > Practicing black magic was once considered a heinous crime on par with rape and murder. The 18th century B.C. Code of Hammurabi contained provisions against sorcery, and many medieval legal systems listed specific parameters for identifying, trying and even executing suspected witches and warlocks. Since finding proof of devilry was no ordinary task, would-be witch-hunters often resorted to some particularly outlandish experiments in their quest to convict accused necromancers. From barbaric tortures and occult dessert dishes to unwinnable trials by ordeal, find out more about seven unusual tests once used as evidence of supernatural misconduct. Mind you, I’m not saying that that was valid proof. I’m only pointing out here that torture and other underhanded methods of finding that proof where used to get information that for all intents of purposes we can see now that the evidence was a false one. In previous discussions I arrived to the conclusion that a lot of that “evidence” is what was used to stop progress for who knows how many centuries. The only issue that I wonder is if an excuse I have noted elsewhere is a valid one: I have seen apologists saying that in the past the religious authorities did not really believe that the demons and the powers of the witches etc. were actually there, but that the problem was one of heresy. Meaning that the religious authorities did not think that the evil was there in reality, but that the heresy was the real sin being punished. And that the witches and devil worshipers were just deluded and wrong. Anything on that? Did most of the religious authorities \*\*really \*\*did think that there was no devil or evil powers that the witches and devil worshipers claimed to have? That they were just heretics with no powers and no devil helping them? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/69 "2016-09-26T18:25:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Even some evidence would be nice, for a start-I’m a reasonable guy. Oh for heaven’s sake, the poor OP is almost certainly suffering from a bizarre delusional psychosis. She has probably been in an abusive relationship in the past and has conflated her abuser with her delusions of demons. Is hectoring and badgering such an unfortunate person the sort of behavior a good pacifist exhibits? Also, please stop referring to yourself in the third person. You don’t speak for anyone but yourself. You certainly don’t speak for me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/70 "2016-09-26T18:31:55Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Also, please stop referring to yourself in the third person. You don’t speak for anyone but yourself. You certainly don’t speak for me. What are you talking about? I said “I’m a reasonable guy”-in what way is that talking in the third person? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/71 "2016-09-26T18:33:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What are you talking about? I said “I’m a reasonable guy”-in what way is that talking in the third person? The post immediately above the one I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/72 "2016-09-26T18:37:30Z")
Didn’t we have a Supreme Court Justice recently who insisted demons are real? And isn’t he dead now? Scalia – letting the cat out of the bag led to some serious pay back! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/73 "2016-09-26T18:41:51Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The post immediately above the one I quoted. Yeah, whatever. As far as the other half of your strange objection is concerned, as far as I know if someone posts on a subject here their posts are open to comment from other posters until the mods say otherwise, your “almost certain” diagnosis notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/74 "2016-09-26T18:43:50Z")
**Chronos** is talking about himself in the third person right now. **Czarcasm** has not referred to himself in the third person at all in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/75 "2016-09-26T18:47:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Chronos** is talking about himself in the third person right now. **Czarcasm** has not referred to himself in the third person at all in this thread. You’re right, he hasn’t. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/76 "2016-09-26T18:49:32Z")
Its the third person… the third person was the demon…? “I’m Yossarian and I don’t need any help…” ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/77 "2016-09-26T19:07:28Z")
Have we exorcised the OP already? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/78 "2016-09-26T19:16:20Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Its the third person… the third person was the demon…? > “I’m Yossarian and I don’t need any help…” No no, that was a case of speaking in the third demon. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/79 "2016-09-26T19:18:00Z")
I would suggest to the author the fascinating \*Did the Greeks believe in their myths ? \*by Paul Veyne. I entrust the transition from hence to the Christian mythos to them. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/80 "2016-09-26T19:36:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have seen apologists saying that in the past the religious authorities did not really believe that the demons and the powers of the witches etc. were actually there, but that the problem was one of heresy. Meaning that the religious authorities did not think that the evil was there in reality, but that the heresy was the real sin being punished. And that the witches and devil worshipers were just deluded and wrong. Wikipedia at least [confirms this view during the European Early Middle Ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Christianisation_and_Early_Middle_Ages). And then of course it shifted until demons were thought of as both real and powerful by the Late Middle Ages, only to have it more than completely reverse suddenly during the age of reason after which witchcraft was a crime of deception. But during the “golden age” of witch-hunting I have no doubt it was thought of as real\*, if only because those few who opposed its abolition at the end were not saying “but it’s heresy!” they were saying “but witchcraft is real!” \*At least as real as any other religious view, that is, i.e. probably a mixture of wholehearted belief and political opportunism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=5)