# Demonology- Are there demons who do whatever they want? Bad and good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844 "2016-09-25T17:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/81 "2016-09-26T19:43:05Z")
And by author I of course meant OP ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/82 "2016-09-26T19:53:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have seen apologists saying that in the past the religious authorities did not really believe that the demons and the powers of the witches etc. were actually there, but that the problem was one of heresy. Meaning that the religious authorities did not think that the evil was there in reality, but that the heresy was the real sin being punished. And that the witches and devil worshipers were just deluded and wrong. It’s both true and more complicated than that. Early theologians (and by early I mid late Antiquity/Middle Ages) were of the opinion that belief in witchery and so forth was rank stupidity on the part of rednecks, and when such reports arose the Church sent blokes to calm them down and/or knock some sense into them. This because God was the only power there was, and belief in witchcraft was erroneous and against this dogma. Back then, while groups of Christians could be dicks about it, the central authority always encouraged forgiveness, and calm, and teaching them etc… rather than just putting them by the sword or worse. But it’s not until the late Renaissance and the dawn of the Protestant Reform and later the Enlightenment (with its threat to the supremacy of the established Church) that Christians turned real nasty about it. It had started a bit earlier actually, when they faced militant heresy like the fraticelli and minorites, but by the XVIth century belief in witchcraft, the devil and so forth had become a real Thing within the Christian church, an Enemy that they both thought a) was the real driver behind the Reform and the pagan creeds the Church would meet in Asia and the Americas and b) would be an unifying force to bring everybody into the fold (though they may not have been so consciously cynical about it - many seem to have been earnest in their beliefs). And it’s then that you’ll find a huge spate of witch trials, burnings at the stake and so forth. It’s still not quite clear to me whether “devilry and witchcraft” was, to them, simply a representation of concepts utterly alien to them that they struggled to fit within their mental frameworks ; or a real belief that Injun medicine men or African shamen or the goodwives of Salem could cast spells and shit. Both could be true at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/83 "2016-09-26T20:04:53Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Have we figured out yet why there might be demons who _don’t_ do whatever they want? > > Are some of them restricted by the Code of Demon Ethics™, or afraid of retribution by the Archangel Michael? Don’t demons (and angels for that matter) typically have a hierarchy of “bosses” in most religions? i.e. “archangel” vs “plain old angel”. Although it sort of begs the question why omnipotent, omniscient beings would need “middle managers”. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/84 "2016-09-26T20:23:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > This because God was the only power there was, and belief in witchcraft was erroneous and against this dogma. I can see that you wouldn’t have lasted long if you were up before the Holy Inquisitors. One of the first questions they asked the suspected witch was, Do you believe in the power of witchcraft? If you answered no you would be branded a heretic because Christian doctrine taught that witches were real (the Witch of Endor in the OT) and that God did allow Satan power to influence mortals through witchcraft and demonology. Of course answering yes wouldn’t help you much either. See Kramer and Sprenger’s [Malleus Maleficarum](http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/), the essential handbook for witch trials in the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/85 "2016-09-26T20:28:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Although it sort of begs the question why omnipotent, omniscient beings would need “middle managers”. Because even gods can’t talk to developers. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/86 "2016-09-26T20:32:06Z")
To the OP, If you’re seeing demons then I think the following steps are in order: 1. Ask a friend to come over and take any weapons you have in your home away from you. 2. Seek psychiatric help. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/87 "2016-09-26T20:32:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yeah, whatever. As far as the other half of your strange objection is concerned, as far as I know if someone posts on a subject here their posts are open to comment from other posters until the mods say otherwise, your “almost certain” diagnosis notwithstanding. There isn’t a reply I could make to this that wouldn’t earn me a warning. I will only say that this is a personal issue for me. But I’ll bow out now. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/88 "2016-09-26T20:54:14Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Of course answering yes wouldn’t help you much either. See Kramer and Sprenger’s [Malleus Maleficarum](http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/), the essential handbook for witch trials in the Middle Ages. Magic, no doubt, as the book was written in the Renaissance. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/89 "2016-09-26T21:14:18Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I can see that you wouldn’t have lasted long if you were up before the Holy Inquisitors. One of the first questions they asked the suspected witch was, Do you believe in the power of witchcraft? If you answered no you would be branded a heretic because Christian doctrine taught that witches were real (the Witch of Endor in the OT) and that God did allow Satan power to influence mortals through witchcraft and demonology. > > Of course answering yes wouldn’t help you much either. See Kramer and Sprenger’s [Malleus Maleficarum](http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/), the essential handbook for witch trials in the Middle Ages. The \*Malleus \*sprang precisely in that late MA/early Renaissance era where I’ve said things got different - note that it was written in the very late XVth century. That’s harly the Middle Ages. And FWIW, the Catholic Church never officially endorsed it, nor did Inquisitors officially use it, only self-appointed witch-hunters. I’m sure it still was bedtime reading for many Inquisitors at the time of course. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/90 "2016-09-26T21:21:59Z")
Fake EDIT : your own cite notes that the mainstream Church denounced its main writer as a crank, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/91 "2016-09-26T22:10:28Z")
> [@](#): > > General consensus is that Heinrich Kramer brought the Malleus Maleficarum before the University of Cologne requesting an endorsement, but was rebuffed. Tradition has it that Kramer forged the document that he included with his work, that he and James Sprenger parted ways on bad terms, and that Kramer was denounced by the Inquisition in 1490. One would expect, however, that had such a document been forged, Mr. Kramer would not have subsequently been able to conduct very popular lectures in Venice starting in 1495, much less be empowered to proceed against the Waldensians and Picards in 1500. Man, the more things change… 🙂 If you are involved in a scandal and lose a lot, just go to the talking circuit… And the great, great, great, great, great, grandparent of Jean-Luc Picard was lucky. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/92 "2016-09-27T00:13:42Z")
While I know you’re joking, just for informational purposes, the Picards were a subgroup of the Waldensians, a group that believed in poverty among the clergy, salvation by faith, and a denial of purgatory or acts of external piety. The Waldensians were popular in Savoy until they were persecuted by the Duke there. Some are still around, although they pretty much joined the Reformed Church movement when Calvin came along, and are pretty much indistinguishable from Calvinists nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/93 "2016-09-27T00:38:55Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Oh for heaven’s sake, the poor OP is almost certainly suffering from a bizarre delusional psychosis. She has probably been in an abusive relationship in the past and has conflated her abuser with her delusions of demons. Is hectoring and badgering such an unfortunate person the sort of behavior a good pacifist exhibits? I have already noted that amateur long-distance psych evals are not appropriate to this thread. Do not pursue this line of discussion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/94 "2016-09-27T05:19:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The \*Malleus \*sprang precisely in that late MA/early Renaissance era where I’ve said things got different - note that it was written in the very late XVth century. That’s harly the Middle Ages. And FWIW, the Catholic Church never officially endorsed it, nor did Inquisitors officially use it, only self-appointed witch-hunters. I’m sure it still was bedtime reading for many Inquisitors at the time of course. Nevertheless my point remains. It was the Church’s belief that the Devil was permitted by God to have the power to tempt and influence manknd, contrary to your earlier assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/95 "2016-09-27T06:17:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Have we figured out yet why there might be demons who _don’t_ do whatever they want? > > Are some of them restricted by the Code of Demon Ethics™, or afraid of retribution by the Archangel Michael? Like all fantastical magic creatures and science fiction technology, their abilities are restricted by narrativium. They can’t do things that would upset the flow of the story, nor be unable to do things that are required by the story. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/96 "2016-09-27T10:34:15Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Nevertheless my point remains. It was the Church’s belief that the Devil was permitted by God to have the power to tempt and influence manknd, contrary to your earlier assertion. The “power to tempt and influence” is not really in the same category as the power to inflict curses or to provide humans with soul-damning extraordinary talents which, I am sure, was the power to which Kobal2 referred. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/97 "2016-09-27T10:57:40Z")
In fact, in the decretals of Gratian, it says that the belief in witchcraft is itself a demonic delusion…that one of the things the devil does is to encourage people to believe they’re witches or have the power of witchcraft, and that to believe that witches exist or that you are one is itself a sinful heresy. This was distinct from a belief in magic, which may or may not have been sinful or criminal depending on what the magician was doing…witchcraft was entering into a deal with the devil in exchange for power, magic was the use of occult tradition or secret forces to change the natural world. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/98 "2016-09-27T11:54:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Nevertheless my point remains. It was the Church’s belief that the Devil was permitted by God to have the power to tempt and influence manknd, contrary to your earlier assertion. This is quite true (and it’s certainly _not_ true that the church ever believed that “God was the only spiritual power that there is”, as someone suggested above: it’s basic Christian doctrine, rooted in the New Testament, that the Devil and demons exist and have certain powers, some of them quite impressive). Witchcraft is a separate issue: to believe in the efficiacy of witchcraft means that you believe witches can literally summon up and control demons and get them do wreak havoc. The church _generally_ said the answer to that question was “no”, although they did go back and forth on that (which explains why at some points in time they did have witch trials). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/99 "2016-09-27T11:58:05Z")
[Required reading](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/993059.Demons) for demonologists. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/100 "2016-09-27T12:07:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because even gods can’t talk to developers. Well-well look! I already told you! I deal with the god damn damned souls so that Beelzebub doesn’t have to! I have people skills! I am good at dealing with people! Can’t you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=6)