# Demonology- Are there demons who do whatever they want? Bad and good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844 "2016-09-25T17:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/121 "2016-09-28T15:22:55Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Veneration is a human level of reverence while worship is a level left to god. So humans(including saints?) are venerated, and gods are worshiped. What about angels? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/122 "2016-09-28T15:24:50Z")
Venerated. There is only one God, only one entity who gets worshiped. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/123 "2016-09-28T15:26:08Z")
By definition angels are not god. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/124 "2016-09-28T15:31:53Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > By definition angels are not god. Doesn’t answer the question directly. If humans(including saints?) are venerated and the god Catholics believe in is worshipped, then angels are…? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/125 "2016-09-28T15:34:16Z")
**Czarcasm** , do you have me on ignore? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/126 "2016-09-28T15:37:49Z")
Angels are saints, and are treated the same way as any other saint. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/127 "2016-09-28T15:46:57Z")
Well, those who are well-behaved, of course. Fallen ones get smacked by St. George, St. Mike et al. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/128 "2016-09-28T15:47:12Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **Czarcasm** , do you have me on ignore? :dubious: Honestly saw his and not yours-sorry. Angels=saints? I am confused. I thought saints and angels were two different things-saints being a special type of human, and angels being an otherworldly creation of god. What’s up? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/129 "2016-09-28T15:50:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Doesn’t answer the question directly. If humans(including saints?) are venerated and the god Catholics believe in is worshipped, then angels are…? I’m sorry I thought I was clear. Let me try again, though **Nava** already answered this as well, citing the [Catholic Encylopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm) (bolding is mine) > [@](#): > > There are several degrees of this worship: > > if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of **adoration** , or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry. > > When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the \*\*veneration \*\*of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.). > > As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called \*\*hyperdulia \*\*(for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/130 "2016-09-28T15:58:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Honestly saw his and not yours-sorry. > Angels=saints? I am confused. I thought saints and angels were two different things-saints being a special type of human, and angels being an otherworldly creation of god. What’s up? Angels are saints in the sense of being “people who are set as examples and who can act as patrons”, and of us referring to the named ones by prepending “saint”: for example, we speak of “the Archangel Saint Michael”. They are not saints in the sense of being “humans who are set as examples and who can act as patrons”, due to not being humans. They can be set as examples because those who are set as examples are those who did not fall, that is, those who chose to toe the line. Some people can spend many, many hours arguing over whether angels have free will or not; if they don’t, then they are not persons and they can’t be saints. But it’s the kind of discussion to which unofficial people trying to sell crystal pyramids have dedicated a lot more time than the Catechism. If we ever meet another intelligent species and some of them convert, they’ll be able to get declared saints as well, despite also not being human. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/131 "2016-09-28T15:58:32Z")
Actually **JRDelirious** laid out dulia and latria earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/132 "2016-09-28T16:04:11Z")
Saints are a category of persons, not a category of humans. Simply put, a saint is any person who is in Heaven. This includes, of course, quite a few humans (including, one hopes, a great many humans who have not ever been officially recognized as such), and also includes all of the non-fallen angels. The Pope or the Church do not “make saints”, as they’re often mistakenly described as doing: Only God does that. The Church just recognizes people as saints. Of course, there’s bound to be at least some difference between how we interact with the angels than how we interact with human saints. It’s possible to seek to “be like” Theresa of Calcutta, or Simon Peter, or Kateri Tekakwitha, in a way that it’s not realistic to seek to “be like” Michael or Gabriel. But as far as worship vs. adoration vs. veneration or whatever, saints are saints, and are not God. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/133 "2016-09-28T16:11:50Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > In the case of Spain and her domains, the biggest witch trials took place in locations where the inquisitors were civilians, not depending on the Church. Apparently it is much more offensive to be a woman living without a man if your property will be split among your accusers. The same is true of the witchfinders of England (and the blokes who penned the _Malleus_). They were, ah, private entrepreneurs shall we say who’d travel from village to village, offering the rural schmucks to rid them of witches in exchange for food, or cash, or the property of any seized witch. And lo and behold, wherever they went, witches to be found abounded ! Life can be funny that way. At least, that’s true for Europe. In the Americas however the Church itself, as embodied by Spanish Franciscan missionaries, seems to have been quite content with flagging any and all Native, animist/polytheist beliefs as straight up devil worship and branded those who persisted in practicing (or leading) their traditional rites as _hechiceros_, spellcasters. Living in such remote corners of the Empire as they did the Franciscans regrettably didn’t have access to enough comfy chairs for a proper Inquisition, but necessity being the mother of invention they came up with plenty of interesting ways to hunt down and punish such “devilry”. The Pueblo Indians would notoriously take it a mite personally in 1680. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/134 "2016-09-28T16:20:51Z")
Am I to understand that I shouldn’t use [catholic.org](http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=308) as a source of information when it comes to what the Catholic Church believes? It claims that Archangel Michael is _not_ a saint. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/135 "2016-09-28T16:57:26Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Oh for heaven’s sake, the poor OP is almost certainly suffering from a bizarre delusional psychosis. She has probably been in an abusive relationship in the past and has conflated her abuser with her delusions of demons… Where do you get _any of this_ from? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/136 "2016-09-28T17:01:49Z")
On that same [catholic.org](http://catholic.org) site, if you go to the “Saints and Angels” list, you will find them listed as “St. (Michael, Gabriel, Raphael) the Archangel” – they are venerated AS saints but are not “saints” in the sense of one of the departed faithful who lived a holy life. They are also assigned as “patrons” of places and persons. E.g. Gabriel of telecommunications workers. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/137 "2016-09-28T17:08:43Z")
My guess is that popular canonizing in the early church gave Michael the title of saint. The [Michaelion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michaelion) was set up as a Christian religious site supposedly by Constainine in the early days of the church. The Catholic Church itself didn’t formalize universal canonization until the 10 or 11th centuries and by then who the hell is going to yank a title away from a popular archangel? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/138 "2016-09-28T19:30:58Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Nitpick: _venerate_, not worship. Veneration translates Greek “Doulia”, worship translates “Latreia”. Yes, of course, my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/139 "2016-09-28T19:40:16Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Angels are saints in the sense of being “people who are set as examples and who can act as patrons”, and of us referring to the named ones by prepending “saint”: for example, we speak of “the Archangel Saint Michael”. They are not saints in the sense of being “humans who are set as examples and who can act as patrons”, due to not being humans. > > They can be set as examples because those who are set as examples are those who did not fall, that is, those who chose to toe the line. > > Some people can spend many, many hours arguing over whether angels have free will or not; if they don’t, then they are not persons and they can’t be saints. But it’s the kind of discussion to which unofficial people trying to sell crystal pyramids have dedicated a lot more time than the Catechism. > If we ever meet another intelligent species and some of them convert, they’ll be able to get declared saints as well, despite also not being human. At least some angels were capable of free will (or at least disobedience to God), one of them has apparently contacted the OP over several incarnations. I thought ensoulment and free will not some level of intelligence was the requirement for sainthood. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/140 "2016-09-28T19:52:14Z")
Without free will there is no actual intelligence, no actual comprehension of the world and ability to decide. A computer may be able to beat the best human players at chess, but it can’t make any decisions which aren’t programmed; it is smart but not intelligent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=8)