# Demonology- Are there demons who do whatever they want? Bad and good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844 "2016-09-25T17:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/141 "2016-09-28T19:56:43Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Without free will there is no actual intelligence, no actual comprehension of the world and ability to decide. A computer may be able to beat the best human players at chess, but it can’t make any decisions which aren’t programmed; it is smart but not intelligent. So Adam and Eve _weren’t_ responsible for their decision in The Garden? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/142 "2016-09-28T20:17:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > . . . If we take the bible at its word, revelations makes it pretty clear that Satan and those in league with him are damned to hell for all eternity. . . . An accurate reading of the Bible has never stopped fringe Christianity. There are at least some hard-core Universalists. (Also, there’s annihilationism, which says that the wicked are put to death – their souls are totally destroyed. There is no “burning in hell forever” according to them.) > [@](#): > > Is there some period after eternity when reconciliation occurs? Or are you saying that we are accepting revelations as one of many possible eventualities? Or that revelations were misinterpreted somewhere along the line? I can only guess that such hard-core Universalists would argue that last possibility, that the Revelation was misinterpreted. > [@](#): > > If God had omniscience, then wouldn’t revelations be a forecast of the future? It might be symbolic. That’s pretty mainstream today: people don’t expect a literal dragon with ten heads, but try to interpret it to mean a group of nations, or a group of churches, or whatever. > [@](#): > > The same way that we communicate with angels. Through prayer. We may not understand angels and demons under normal circumstances (the gift of tongues?) but they can understand us and make themselves understood to us. Alas, the latter bit seems to be rather a failure. The angels are unable or unwilling to communicate with the great majority of mankind. (And they refuse to communicate even with their truest believers, in terms that can be tested objectively.) It’s very messy. (I have a couple of friends who hold conversations with Jesus. However, Jesus never says anything concrete to them. Not even “Watch out for that parked car.”) But, anyway, yes, if I were in communication with a demon, I’d try to reform him. I suspect the effort would be futile…but lots of the good things we do in this life (nuclear disarmament!) seem to be futile. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/143 "2016-09-28T20:24:41Z")
“George, George, George of the Jungle, Friend to You and Me, Gearge, George, George of the Jungle,” [Jesus] Watch Out for That Tree! [/Jesus] THUNK!! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/144 "2016-09-28T20:25:52Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Without free will there is no actual intelligence, no actual comprehension of the world and ability to decide. A computer may be able to beat the best human players at chess, but it can’t make any decisions which aren’t programmed; it is smart but not intelligent. At this point in time…yes, although the best AI routines are already starting to push at the boundaries. In the abstract, human minds are “machines” and could be emulated, in the worst case by brute-force mimicry. (Also, people keep moving the boundaries! It was very firmly declared, not so very long ago – within my memory! – that computers could never play chess.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/145 "2016-09-29T07:29:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So Adam and Eve _weren’t_ responsible for their decision in The Garden? Yes they were, they had free will and had been given clear instructions on “this is how things work”. The apple doesn’t represent knowledge in the sense in which you and I would use the word, it doesn’t represent understanding; it represents the power to _define_. At that point in the allegory of the garden, Adam and Eve are in a situation in which they consider that a rose isn’t a rose until they name it a rose. The apple represents the notion that “good” and “bad” aren’t whatever they happen to be, but whatever I want them to be; the ultimate hubris. The idea that if I say it enough times and believe it enough, I’ll be able to fly without prosthetics, because it is I who defines the world. It is not, as that smack against the floor will demonstrate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/146 "2016-09-29T10:52:54Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yes they were, they had free will and had been given clear instructions on “this is how things work”. The apple doesn’t represent knowledge in the sense in which you and I would use the word, it doesn’t represent understanding; it represents the power to _define_. At that point in the allegory of the garden, Adam and Eve are in a situation in which they consider that a rose isn’t a rose until they name it a rose. The apple represents the notion that “good” and “bad” aren’t whatever they happen to be, but whatever I want them to be; the ultimate hubris. The idea that if I say it enough times and believe it enough, I’ll be able to fly without prosthetics, because it is I who defines the world. > > It is not, as that smack against the floor will demonstrate. I guess I I must have gotten an abridged edition of the Bible, because mine didn’t have all those details in it. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/147 "2016-09-29T11:10:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Literally before we can go any further in this discussion, we must define what we mean by the term “demon”. I can’t even tell you if I believe in demons or not unless I know what you mean by that term. And many of the OP’s questions would be answered immediately by a proper definition. Haven’t we already tried this with “God”? I expect similar results. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/148 "2016-09-29T11:18:13Z")
> [@Ifill](#): > > 1)I believe in my past life I summoned this demon and I fell in love with him. I have talked to archangel Michael and he told me I could use that feeling of love I felt for him to help people. I literally felt how much I loved him so much I even cried and I don’t cry a lot. This demon I believe oppressed me for 15 years, and he told me he did it to see if I was still strong as he knew me to be. Even though I know this I can’t hate him. I mean I am who I am today because of the shit I’ve been through and I wouldn’t change that for anything. Have you spoken to any medical professionals or religious leaders about this and, if not, are you open to doing so? As far as I know there have been no confirmed cases of past lives _or_ demon possession, nor has anyone ever been confirmed to have psychic abilities(a claim in your second post), so I have to ask if you would be willing to consider a more mundane explanation for your experiences. Although you claim not to follow any particular religion, your additional extraordinary claim to have talked to Archangel Michael hints that you have followed some religion in the past-would you mind expanding on this? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/149 "2016-09-29T11:19:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I guess I I must have gotten an abridged edition of the Bible, because mine didn’t have all those details in it. Yours didn’t have the bit about naming the animals and all that jazz? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/150 "2016-09-29T11:21:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yours didn’t have the bit about naming the animals and all that jazz? I’m sorry-what are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/151 "2016-09-29T11:28:36Z")
Genesis 2, 19-20 (New International Version, taken from [biblehub](http://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/2.htm)): 19Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/152 "2016-09-29T11:31:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I could be wrong but ghosts and faerie seem unlikely to be powerful enough to track people through reincarnation AND be interested in show so much interest in some random person. Ghosts and faerie are just a lower, weaker form of fictional beings. So when it comes to being totally imaginary, they are not as competent as the higher… um… whatever things? Which paradoxically means they are more real then the Super-Demons et al. I’m reminded of trying to wrap my head around a negative times a negative is a positive. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/153 "2016-09-29T13:17:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Genesis 2, 19-20 (New International Version, taken from [biblehub](http://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/2.htm)): > > 19Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. I don’t see how Adam’s (Eve wasn’t created yet!) zoological nomenclature has the slightest bearing on the question. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/154 "2016-09-29T13:38:10Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > My guess is that popular canonizing in the early church gave Michael the title of saint. The [Michaelion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michaelion) was set up as a Christian religious site supposedly by Constainine in the early days of the church. The Catholic Church itself didn’t formalize universal canonization until the 10 or 11th centuries and by then who the hell is going to yank a title away from a popular archangel? “Saint” is the noun form of what really should be an adjective (which is how you get names like Santa Fe, “Holy Faith”). ‘Sanctus’ just means ‘holy’, and as an adjective can refer to angels as well as people. What is _normally_ meant by it means canonized dead people, but in theory calling an Angel “saint” or “sanctus” is supposed to mean that they’re holy. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/155 "2016-09-29T13:53:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The end of all things? > > If we take the bible at its word, revelations makes it pretty clear that Satan and those in league with him are damned to hell for all eternity. > > Is there some period after eternity when reconciliation occurs? Or are you saying that we are accepting revelations as one of many possible eventualities? Or that revelations were misinterpreted somewhere along the line? > > If God had omniscience, then wouldn’t revelations be a forecast of the future? N.B. I’m not a universalist (I’m a hopeful universalist as comes to people, and a very doubtful universalist as regards the demons, and I guess not a universalist at all as regards the devil). Christian universalists (which were probably more common prior to the fifth century than afterwards) have dealt with those sorts of passages in a few different way. One of them is to argue over translation. The references to eternal punishment typically use phrases that means something close to “unto the age of ages” or “ageless” punishment, which _could_ mean genuinely eternal, but might not. The strongest argument in favour of “age of ages” meaning ‘eternal’ here is that similar expressions are used to describe eternal happiness in heaven, and nobody denies that those expressions really mean ‘eternal’. But then, orthodox Christianity generally doesn’t consider good and evil to be symmetrical, so maybe it’s incorrect to treat the descriptions of hell and heaven symmetrically either. It’s also, obviously, possible that a condemnation to eternal punishment doesn’t _necessarily_ mean that the victim will actually suffer ‘eternally’, any more than a court giving someone a life sentence means they will actually stay in prison for the rest of their life. God can exempt people (and who knows, maybe demons too) from his own decrees, in the interest of mercy. The real interesting question here is whether the damned are able to _repent_, or if they are eternally fixed in their sin. People have made interesting arguments both ways, going back to the very beginnings of Christianity. One of the earliest is a text called the Apocalypse of Peter, IIRC dating from around 100-125 AD or so, which was actually used in some early versions of the Bible and accepted by some church fathers (and was later dropped from the orthodox Christian canon, on grounds of late dating). It’s a vision of heaven and hell, mostly focusing on hell with descriptions of the punishments doled out to various categories of evildoer. At the end of the document (in some versions) Jesus takes the narrator aside and confides in him as a sort of ‘secret’, that the end of time God will have mercy on all these people and reduce them from their torment, but that the world isn’t ready to know about that yet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/156 "2016-09-29T14:34:00Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Ghosts and faerie are just a lower, weaker form of fictional beings. So when it comes to being totally imaginary, they are not as competent as the higher… um… whatever things? > > Which paradoxically means they are more real then the Super-Demons et al. I’m reminded of trying to wrap my head around a negative times a negative is a positive. Well some ghosts and faerie can be VERY powerful but they tend to be less interested in humans than most. The most powerful faerie reside almost entirely in Thelanis or the Feywild while the most powerful of ghosts have set up court in Shadowfell or the Land of Undeath and have little to no interest in the comings and going in the prime material plane. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/157 "2016-09-29T14:37:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > N.B. I’m not a universalist (I’m a hopeful universalist as comes to people, and a very doubtful universalist as regards the demons, and I guess not a universalist at all as regards the devil). Christian universalists (which were probably more common prior to the fifth century than afterwards) have dealt with those sorts of passages in a few different way. > > One of them is to argue over translation. The references to eternal punishment typically use phrases that means something close to “unto the age of ages” or “ageless” punishment, which _could_ mean genuinely eternal, but might not. The strongest argument in favour of “age of ages” meaning ‘eternal’ here is that similar expressions are used to describe eternal happiness in heaven, and nobody denies that those expressions really mean ‘eternal’. But then, orthodox Christianity generally doesn’t consider good and evil to be symmetrical, so maybe it’s incorrect to treat the descriptions of hell and heaven symmetrically either. > > It’s also, obviously, possible that a condemnation to eternal punishment doesn’t _necessarily_ mean that the victim will actually suffer ‘eternally’, any more than a court giving someone a life sentence means they will actually stay in prison for the rest of their life. God can exempt people (and who knows, maybe demons too) from his own decrees, in the interest of mercy. > > The real interesting question here is whether the damned are able to _repent_, or if they are eternally fixed in their sin. People have made interesting arguments both ways, going back to the very beginnings of Christianity. One of the earliest is a text called the Apocalypse of Peter, IIRC dating from around 100-125 AD or so, which was actually used in some early versions of the Bible and accepted by some church fathers (and was later dropped from the orthodox Christian canon, on grounds of late dating). It’s a vision of heaven and hell, mostly focusing on hell with descriptions of the punishments doled out to various categories of evildoer. At the end of the document (in some versions) Jesus takes the narrator aside and confides in him as a sort of ‘secret’, that the end of time God will have mercy on all these people and reduce them from their torment, but that the world isn’t ready to know about that yet. Well, this is consistent with the concept of a merciful God and I always thought that eternal damnation was a harsh result for run of the mill sinners. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/158 "2016-09-29T18:38:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Lutherans and Anglicans (and maybe a few other early offshoots of Catholicism) worship the Virgin Mary as the most virtuous of all saints. > > The lack of witch trials in catholic countries is probably the result of a great folk tradition of witchcraft (or what was mistaken for witchcraft) in some parts of Europe and not others OR a sanguine attitude towards what might have appeared to be witchcraft in the Catholic church which seemed ready to adopt local customs and folklore to make Catholicism an easier sell to the locals. Yes, that’s what I meant; did the cult of Mary in some way inoculate Catholic counrtries against the gynophobia that in part underlay witchcraft hysteria? Like I said, idle speculation. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well some ghosts and faerie can be VERY powerful but they tend to be less interested in humans than most. > > The most powerful faerie reside almost entirely in Thelanis or the Feywild while the most powerful of ghosts have set up court in Shadowfell or the Land of Undeath and have little to no interest in the comings and going in the prime material plane. Um, cite? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/159 "2016-09-29T18:50:09Z")
D&D references, but if you believe it, it can be true! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844/160 "2016-09-29T21:57:16Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Not to get all GQ on everyone, but in some Jewish mythologies, the [archangel Samael](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael)… And boss of 7th Heaven, meaning he gets first dibs on Catherine Hicks, the bastard. :mad: > [@Nava](#): > > [The people in charge of the Zugarramurdi museum](http://www.turismo.navarra.es/eng/organice-viaje/recurso.aspx?o=4040) must have fallen asleep in History class, as they think 1610 was the Middle Ages. It was, in Zugarramurdi. 😉 > [@Czarcasm](#): > > So Adam and Eve _weren’t_ responsible for their decision in The Garden? Nope. They made that decision _before_ eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I can’t imagine hiring a Protestant lawyer. Jew or Catholic? Yeah. Splitting hairs is what we do. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demonology-are-there-demons-who-do-whatever-they-want-bad-and-good/766844.md?page=9)