# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/181 "2018-01-20T06:01:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > For those following at home without a scorecard, my understanding is that **Mr. Ditka** ’s opinion of **Mr. McVeigh** ’s murder of 168 people is that it was [**“not an entirely unreasonable reaction.”**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20716465&postcount=165) (There’s already another thread if you need to debate whether this mass murder was _more or less not unreasonable_ than the Antifa terrorist who threw a stone toward a Nazi.) I considered issuing a warning for this given my previous note in post #166, but I am open to the possibility it wasn’t crystal clear. McVeigh isn’t germane to this thread. Introducing it in this fashion is akin to harassment. Don’t do this any further. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/182 "2018-01-20T06:05:07Z")
Blessed be our New Founding Fathers and America, a nation reborn. May God be with you all. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/183 "2018-01-20T06:10:39Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Top trending on Twitter? #TrumpShutdown > > Number three? #GOPShutdown > > NOT trending? #DemShutdown, #DemocratShutdown, or any other form that implies Democrats are at fault. Guess we know who the public blames. Twitter != “the public”, or at least not all of the public. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/184 "2018-01-20T06:23:05Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Top trending on Twitter? #TrumpShutdown > > Number three? #GOPShutdown > > NOT trending? #DemShutdown, #DemocratShutdown, or any other form that implies Democrats are at fault. Guess we know who the public blames. I guess the Russian bots haven’t kicked in yet. Or maybe Twitter is finally blocking them. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/185 "2018-01-20T06:29:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Twitter != “the public”, or at least not all of the public. It’s generally a pretty solid indicator of public opinion. > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I guess the Russian bots haven’t kicked in yet. Or maybe Twitter is finally blocking them. How far ahead of the US is 8 AM in Moscow? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/186 "2018-01-20T07:07:46Z")
Does anyone know the breakdown of the vote? How many Dems and how many Pubs voted against cloture? Back to the subject of the OP. Can you defend these Senators effectively causing a shutdown? Remember how horrible previous shutdowns were when a minority of Pubs were “obstructionists” to passing a bill to prevent shutdowns. Does anyone want to take (and explain) the position where this shutdown is OK but the shutdowns over the deficit cap were not? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/187 "2018-01-20T07:13:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Does anyone know the breakdown of the vote? How many Dems and how many Pubs voted against cloture? 44 Dems and 5 Reps voted against cloture. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/188 "2018-01-20T07:13:33Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Does anyone know the breakdown of the vote? How many Dems and how many Pubs voted against cloture? Democrats who voted yes; Jones, Donnelly, Heitkamp, Manchin Republicans who voted no; Flake, McConnell (!), Paul, Graham, Lee King and Sanders voted no and McCain did not vote. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/189 "2018-01-20T08:00:47Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Does anyone know the breakdown of the vote? How many Dems and how many Pubs voted against cloture? > > Back to the subject of the OP. Can you defend these Senators effectively causing a shutdown? Remember how horrible previous shutdowns were when a minority of Pubs were “obstructionists” to passing a bill to prevent shutdowns. Does anyone want to take (and explain) the position where this shutdown is OK but the shutdowns over the deficit cap were not? The 2013 shutdown was led by the Republicans in the House. Both 2013 and 2018 are led by Congressional Republicans attempting to deny healthcare to poor people. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/190 "2018-01-20T08:28:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There’s been a subtle shift. > > First, it was, _“Holding the budget/debt-ceiling hostage is never acceptable for anything.”_ > > Now, it’s _“Holding the budget/debt-ceiling hostage is OK if it’s for a good cause.”_ The two sides of that slash aren’t at all equivalent in my mind. The consequences of a (probably short-term) government shutdown aren’t likely to be as severe as if the U.S. were to default on its debts. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/191 "2018-01-20T08:52:19Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > How far ahead of the US is 8 AM in Moscow? Probably Kiev; plausible deniability and all that. > [@Smapti](#): > > Democrats who voted yes; Jones, Donnelly, Heitkamp, Manchin > Republicans who voted no; Flake, McConnell (!), Paul, Graham, Lee > > King and Sanders voted no and McCain did not vote. See #176; it wasn’t a real No by McConnell. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/192 "2018-01-20T08:59:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > See #176; it wasn’t a real No by McConnell. And yet, it says something that the same senator [who literally tweeted a ransom note to the Democrats earlier today](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/mitch-mcconnell-shutdown-tweet-a-ransom-note-says-dnc-head/) voted _with_ them. Sad! ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/193 "2018-01-20T10:16:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet, it says something that the same senator [who literally tweeted a ransom note to the Democrats earlier today](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/mitch-mcconnell-shutdown-tweet-a-ransom-note-says-dnc-head/) voted _with_ them. > > Sad! All that vote says is that McConnell is a politician. A ‘no’ vote from a Republican in leadership would be expected under the circumstances. Trying to make anything more of it than his vote being a calculated political move is mis-reading the situation. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/194 "2018-01-20T10:58:30Z")
It’s not the incongruity between a shutdown and MAGA that befuddles me, it’s the substantial quorum of US voters who’d consider that a shutdown represents an improvement in governance. [shrug] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/195 "2018-01-20T11:17:28Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > All that vote says is that McConnell is a politician. A ‘no’ vote from a Republican in leadership would be expected under the circumstances. Exactly. Party over country. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/196 "2018-01-20T12:45:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think you have a consistent habit of unfair presentation of your opponents views. Is it really? You \*could \*try to show how they’re unfair, instead of simply complaining that they make you look bad. That looks more like confirmation than denial, yanno. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/197 "2018-01-20T12:52:15Z")
Views on the importance of shutdowns have certainly changed since [the ancient mists of 2013](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013), haven’t they? Then, it was more important to the Republicans that access to health care for the working poor be repealed than that the government be allowed to operate for another 16 days. \*Something \*must have changed to make suspending deportations of longtime productive and family-based US residents \*less \*important than a shutdown. I wonder what that could have been, hmm … ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/198 "2018-01-20T13:02:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is it really? You \*could \*try to show how they’re unfair, instead of simply complaining that they make you look bad. That looks more like confirmation than denial, yanno. Actually, never mind. Wrong forum. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/199 "2018-01-20T13:33:57Z")
Is there some reason why the Majority can’t invoke the “nuclear option” or whatever it was called in order to pass the CR or the budget? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/200 "2018-01-20T13:34:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is there some reason why the Majority can’t invoke the “nuclear option” or whatever it was called in order to pass the CR or the budget? Pretty sure they could get rid of the filibuster (or my preference, mandate actual talking filibusters), but they have elected not to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=11)