# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/401 "2018-01-22T21:23:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And Democrats that voted for it. What did you hope to prove by pointing that out? It’s a Republican bill, and even Republicans won’t support it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/402 "2018-01-22T21:40:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > It’s a Republican bill, and even Republicans won’t support it. ObamaCare was a Democratic bill, and even Democrats wouldn’t support it. What conclusion(s) should we draw from these tidbits of information? That neither party marches in perfect lockstep 100% of the time? I agree. Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/403 "2018-01-22T21:52:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ObamaCare was a Democratic bill, and even Democrats wouldn’t support it. What conclusion(s) should we draw from these tidbits of information? That neither party marches in perfect lockstep 100% of the time? I agree. Something else? ObamaCare passed. The Republican funding bill didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/404 "2018-01-22T22:27:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > > > Is there some recall mechanism for Senators in Oregon? > > U.S. Senators-yes. State Senators-No. Does that mechanism involve reading the dicta in _U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton_, 514 U.S. 779(1995) and the reasoning of _Comittee to Recall Menendez v. Wells_, 7 A. 3d 720 (NJ 2010) and then saying, “Shit, that fuckin’ tanks our recall plans?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/405 "2018-01-22T22:32:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Does that mechanism involve reading the dicta in _U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton_, 514 U.S. 779(1995) and the reasoning of _Comittee to Recall Menendez v. Wells_, 7 A. 3d 720 (NJ 2010) and then saying, “Shit, that fuckin’ tanks our recall plans?” I don’t know-I’m not a fucking lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/406 "2018-01-22T23:23:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t know-I’m not a fucking lawyer. You only realized this after answering **HurricaneDitka** ’s question, did you? Lucky I was here to remind you, and I’m sure that now that you’re reminded, you’ll guide your future responses accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/407 "2018-01-22T23:31:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You only realized this after answering **HurricaneDitka** ’s question, did you? Lucky I was here to remind you, and I’m sure that now that you’re reminded, you’ll guide your future responses accordingly. Maybe you could, I dunno, explain it for us non-lawyerly folk. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/408 "2018-01-22T23:39:08Z")
As one of the non-lawyerly folk, I took it to mean that Oregon’s recall mechanism might be better-suited as toilet paper than valid law, but I’m in for one of **Bricker** ’s always-delightful explanations too. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/409 "2018-01-22T23:45:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > An interesting question, but by definition, a person must not have reached their 16th birthday to qualify for DACA. I would say children who are 15 years or younger fall into the category of “we can reasonably believe that they had no say in whether to be brought to the United States or not.” But then that begs the question of whether it’s in their interests to stay, since they would be separated from their parents when they get sent back. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/410 "2018-01-23T00:10:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But then that begs the question of whether it’s in their interests to stay, since they would be separated from their parents when they get sent back. Let me start over: they were 15 years old or younger when they entered this country. Today they average 25 years old today. And since DACA has mostly to do with work permits (generally speaking) I’m just not clear that there are a lot of minors who are enrolled in DACA. I don’t know how DACA deals with minors whose parents may be expelled, but I agree that the children can’t just be left in the US to fend for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/411 "2018-01-23T00:34:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You only realized this after answering **HurricaneDitka** ’s question, did you? Lucky I was here to remind you, and I’m sure that now that you’re reminded, you’ll guide your future responses accordingly. Poor stupid me, all I did was go to the official site for [Oregon.gov](http://Oregon.gov) and give the same answer they gave. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/412 "2018-01-23T00:45:15Z")
Who’s in charge of checking to see what happens to the Dreamers when they get where we are sending them? Anyone? Anyone giving it any thought? What preparations are being made to help them? Ever hear of MS-13? No, they’re not the scary motherfuckers, they’re the ones the scary motherfuckes are afraid of. We’re planning on sending them a fresh basket of victims, with a ribbon. Lot of us are experienced and savvy people. But how many of us could be dumped onto El Salvador or Guatemala, penniless, unwelcome…and cope? What sort of crime would have to commit to deserve such stern retribution? Legal or illegal, this is not justice. This is cruelty. Its not even vengeance, we are not injured. Deport bad _hombres_? Sure. Deport a barista going to community college? To prevent them from diving into a career of plunder and mayhem? Mercy for the helpless and harmless. Is that so hard to grasp? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/413 "2018-01-23T00:51:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Who’s in charge of checking to see what happens to the Dreamers when they get where we are sending them? Anyone? Anyone giving it any thought? What preparations are being made to help them? Ever hear of MS-13? No, they’re not the scary motherfuckers, they’re the ones the scary motherfuckes are afraid of. We’re planning on sending them a fresh basket of victims, with a ribbon. > > Lot of us are experienced and savvy people. But how many of us could be dumped onto El Salvador or Guatemala, penniless, unwelcome…and cope? What sort of crime would have to commit to deserve such stern retribution? > > Legal or illegal, this is not justice. This is cruelty. Its not even vengeance, we are not injured. Deport bad _hombres_? Sure. Deport a barista going to community college? To prevent them from diving into a career of plunder and mayhem? > > **Mercy for the helpless and harmless. Is that so hard to grasp?** Apparently, yes. Kind of like how The King Of The Jungle preys on the sick, the lame, the old and those too young to fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/414 "2018-01-23T01:00:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mercy for the helpless and harmless. Is that so hard to grasp? Look out. The last guy who suggested that was nailed to a cross. Republicans _hate_ what that guy stood for. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/415 "2018-01-23T01:11:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Look out. The last guy who suggested that was nailed to a cross. Republicans _hate_ what that guy stood for. But they love trying to force other people to follow his book. [del]Sharia[/del] Christian law, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/416 "2018-01-23T01:27:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Who’s in charge of checking to see what happens to the Dreamers when they get where we are sending them? Anyone? Anyone giving it any thought? What preparations are being made to help them? … Presumably that would be the responsibility of the governments whose citizens they are, although I suspect we’ll never see them deported en masse, so it won’t be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/417 "2018-01-23T01:38:41Z")
We’re talking about people who weren’t old enough to consent to the decisions their parents or guardians made for them. Even if they were cognizant that they were breaking the law, they were probably led to that decision by adults who were in some way responsible for their guidance and care. In one sense, the Dreamers are like refugees. People who ended up in the United States by chance and circumstance. This country has a history of accepting and embracing such people over generations. It’s clear, however, that the Republicans have embraced a different history, waxing nostalgic for some of the darker chapters in our country’s history when America mostly excluded non-European immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/418 "2018-01-23T01:40:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me start over: they were 15 years old or younger when they entered this country. Today they average 25 years old today. And since DACA has mostly to do with work permits (generally speaking) I’m just not clear that there are a lot of minors who are enrolled in DACA. Speaking of the work permits, how have these DACA folks worked from when they turned 18 until DACA was implemented, without breaking any existing laws? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/419 "2018-01-23T01:45:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Who’s in charge of checking to see what happens to the Dreamers when they get where we are sending them? The idea isn’t really to deport them. It’s to push them into under the table jobs where they don’t pay taxes. Remember, Repubicans hate taxes. It’s ridiculous, and also too sad to to put a emoticon on this. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/420 "2018-01-23T01:51:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mercy for the helpless and harmless. Is that so hard to grasp? And yet it just wasn’t a priority from 2007 to 2010, when they could have passed the DREAM Act anytime they wanted to and have it signed by the President. They wanted the issue instead, and now real people are paying for it. Actually, real people paid for it all during the Obama years too, but that was less bad because Obama. He didn’t enjoy it, it was just political strategy, so that makes it less of a sin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=22)