# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/421 "2018-01-23T01:52:34Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Speaking of the work permits, how have these DACA folks worked from when they turned 18 until DACA was implemented, without breaking any existing laws? You’ve proved they’re all hardened criminals. Let’s execute them. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/422 "2018-01-23T01:55:19Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Speaking of the work permits, how have these DACA folks worked from when they turned 18 until DACA was implemented, without breaking any existing laws? This sounds a lot nicer than some of what Trump says. At least you think they work. But, actually, some did and some didn’t. [DACA increased labor force participation.](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272716301268) I suppose you could argue that only those who weren’t working should get green cards. This would be foolish from a national interest standpoint, since I’d think we want hard-working people to stay. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/423 "2018-01-23T01:56:10Z")
There should actually be some reckoning for the crimes they did commit. A good start would be making legal status conditional on having not done anything beyond document fraud. If they drove illegally, if they stole someone’s identity, if they used that stolen identity to get credit cards or loans, or used a fake identity to defraud anyone besides their employer, then there should be penalties for that, and in serious cases, they should be ineligible. Also, in the interests of fairness, all Americans would be pardoned for document fraud as part of the deal, and furthermore all Americans should get whatever forgiveness DACA recipients get on unpaid taxes. If we’re forgiving driving without a license, then all Americans get that forgiven too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/424 "2018-01-23T02:05:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There should actually be some reckoning for the crimes they did commit. A good start would be making legal status conditional on having not done anything beyond document fraud. If they drove illegally, if they stole someone’s identity, if they used that stolen identity to get credit cards or loans, or used a fake identity to defraud anyone besides their employer, then there should be penalties for that, and in serious cases, they should be ineligible. > > Also, in the interests of fairness, all Americans would be pardoned for document fraud as part of the deal, and furthermore all Americans should get whatever forgiveness DACA recipients get on unpaid taxes. If we’re forgiving driving without a license, then all Americans get that forgiven too. Drove illegally? If they used someone elses SSN, in a way harmless to that person? What forgiveness on unpaid taxes? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/425 "2018-01-23T02:13:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Drove illegally? If they drove without a license, that should affect their eligibility for amnesty. That’s a danger to the public. > [@](#): > > If they used someone elses SSN, in a way harmless to that person? If it was in fact harmless to that person. As in, the IRS never bugged them about a job they never worked at, and the person possessing the SSN never used it for anything but work. > [@](#): > > What forgiveness on unpaid taxes? Whatever deal DACA recipients get on taxes, if any, should be available to all Americans. Most amnesty deals require paying back taxes, although not penalties and interest. If we’re doing that for them, we do it for everyone. If DACA recipients don’t have to worry about taxes while they were working illegally at all, then Americans behind on their taxes should also get amnesty. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/426 "2018-01-23T02:23:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Also, in the interests of fairness, all Americans would be pardoned for document fraud as part of the deal, and furthermore all Americans should get whatever forgiveness DACA recipients get on unpaid taxes. Many must have paid social security taxes under another identity. I guess it depends on the exact terms of any new law passed, but I suspect a lot of them won’t get any benefit from what they paid in. So you got your penalty. > [@adaher](#): > > If we’re forgiving driving without a license, then all Americans get that forgiven too. As a daily transit rider, I’m not enormously sympathetic to the the idea that a meaninful life requires a car – although I also know that lack of one reduces employment options. I would think that driving without a license is a misdemeanor with a similar penalty if you are a citizen, a permanent resident, an ordinary tourist traveling in the US on a passport, or an undocumented immigrant. I also think that if you get away with driving without a license, and then later get a license, there will never be a retro-active penalty, regardless of immigration status. I guess that this upsets you. How about forbidding Norweigian, Austrian, German and other Trump-approved tourists from ever visiting here again if they are stopped by US police and found to be driving without an international drivers permit. Surely you are just as concerned about singling them out for special punishment, right? I’ve many times driven in Canada without the legally required Canadian insurance card. Do any Canadians on this board have a desparate desire to fine me for this? (Although it might be legitimate to fine me if I was in an accident and didn’t have the card.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/427 "2018-01-23T02:24:37Z")
Sheez I can’t leave you guys alone for 9 hours…I log in and I have pages of posts to read. This thread is starting to remind me of George Carlin’s (revised) Dirty Words You Can’t Say on TV… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/428 "2018-01-23T03:07:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Whatever deal DACA recipients get on taxes, if any, should be available to all Americans. Most amnesty deals require paying back taxes, although not penalties and interest. If we’re doing that for them, we do it for everyone. If DACA recipients don’t have to worry about taxes while they were working illegally at all, then Americans behind on their taxes should also get amnesty. Cite they are getting taxes forgiven? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/429 "2018-01-23T04:13:32Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Many must have paid social security taxes under another identity. I guess it depends on the exact terms of any new law passed, but I suspect a lot of them won’t get any benefit from what they paid in. So you got your penalty. Bills have been proposed to give people credit for SS taxes paid. There is no way that won’t be a future issue. But sure, if they agree to forfeit benefits for the years working illegally, that counts towards their tax bill. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/430 "2018-01-23T04:18:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite they are getting taxes forgiven? We’re not at that stage yet, but under the 2013 immigration reform bill that passed the Senate, there were complicated provisions covering back taxes. > **[Reform tied to immigrant taxes](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/28/immigration-reform-taxes/2119353/)** > > Legal resident status would hinge on payment of taxes, fees and penalties. As the article points out, this has been a feature of every immigration reform bill except for the 1986 one, which basically forgave immigrants who avoided taxes. We don’t know what a future deal will involve, but if there is any special tax treatment for Dreamers, it must apply to all Americans who are delinquent. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/431 "2018-01-23T04:21:45Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Many must have paid social security taxes under another identity. Many? What about the ones who did not? Also, did they pay their federal income taxes? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/432 "2018-01-23T04:27:02Z")
THat’s what we have to find out. One of the reasons I hated the 2013 bill was the sheer truckfulls of bullshit that were shoveled at American voters. “We’re going to make them pay back taxes! Oh, but it’s up to the IRS to assess taxes, and they aren’t going to work very hard on that(too many citizens they need to harass, no time), and immigrants won’t have to prove they paid taxes. However, we can assure you that American citizens will continue to be harassed by IRS agents when their identity has been stolen by 27 meatpacking plant workers 1000 miles away from their residence. Someone’s gotta pay the bills around here!” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/433 "2018-01-23T04:27:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We’re not at that stage yet, but under the 2013 immigration reform bill that passed the Senate, there were complicated provisions covering back taxes. > > [Reform tied to immigrant taxes](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/28/immigration-reform-taxes/2119353/) > > As the article points out, this has been a feature of every immigration reform bill except for the 1986 one, which basically forgave immigrants who avoided taxes. > > We don’t know what a future deal will involve, but if there is any special tax treatment for Dreamers, it must apply to all Americans who are delinquent. Oh for God’s sake. How about for all Americans who have lived continuously in the United States since June 15, 2007 and were under age 31 on June 15, 2012? Would that satisfy this bizarre demand for fairness? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/434 "2018-01-23T04:28:16Z")
14th amendment: equal protection of the laws. You cannot forgive taxes for one group of people without forgiving taxes for all. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/435 "2018-01-23T04:34:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 14th amendment: equal protection of the laws. You cannot forgive taxes for one group of people without forgiving taxes for all. Sure you can. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/436 "2018-01-23T04:34:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 14th amendment: equal protection of the laws. You cannot forgive taxes for one group of people without forgiving taxes for all. Where did you hear DACA recipients were being forgiven for unpaid taxes? DACA recipients pay billions of dollars in taxes, even though they can’t take advantage of the benefits such as Social Security. ETA: [Citation](https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/2017DACA.pdf). . ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/437 "2018-01-23T04:44:06Z")
Too late to edit: 852,000 persons currently in DACA status contribute $1,603,068,000. If they were granted citizenship, they would contribute $1,654,779,000. 452,900 persons are eligible for DACA status, but are not receiving DACA contribute $423,765,000. If granted citizenship, they would contribute $876,951,000. So 1.3 million DACA or DACA-eligible people are paying $2,531,730,000 in federal taxes. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/438 "2018-01-23T04:48:52Z")
Okay. Wow. I just read the USA Today article you linked, adaher. I would now love you to quote the place where it poins out there were “complicated provisions” in every immigrtion bill on back taxes since 1986. Because a text search only gives one hit for “1986”. > [@](#): > > The Immigration Reform and Control Act, a 1986 law that provided amnesty to nearly 3 million undocumented immigrants, did not include a back-taxes requirement. Since, as far as the IRS is concerned, back taxes are damn well required if you made any money, you have to do a lot better than that. I’m sure we both know that investigating past income of Dreamers would be a nightmare which is why most sane policy makers want to pretend it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/439 "2018-01-23T04:49:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So 1.3 million DACA or DACA-eligible people are paying $2,531,730,000 in federal taxes. Your OWN cite says state and local taxes, not federal taxes. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/440 "2018-01-23T04:51:28Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Your OWN cite says state and local taxes, not federal taxes. :smack: You are correct, I searched for Federal and was looking at the numbers instead of the header. I admit my mistake. However, DACA and DACA-eligible recipients are paying taxes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=23)