# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/441 "2018-01-23T04:55:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Okay. Wow. I just read the USA Today article you linked, adaher. I would now love you to quote the place where it poins out there were “complicated provisions” in every immigrtion bill on back taxes since 1986. Because a text search only gives one hit for “1986”. > > Since, as far as the IRS is concerned, back taxes are damn well required if you made any money, you have to do a lot better than that. > > I’m sure we both know that investigating past income of Dreamers would be a nightmare which is why most sane policy makers want to pretend it doesn’t exist. Then don’t lie to the public and claim you’re making them pay back taxes. That would be a nice start. The “must learn English” requirement is also bullshit of the smelliest sort. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/442 "2018-01-23T04:57:05Z")
Amnesty for DREAMERS being unconditional is certainly possible, but I doubt the public would accept it. Especially since Democrats also want protections for parents in the deal too. Americans take a dim view of special treatment. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/443 "2018-01-23T05:05:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Then don’t lie to the public and claim you’re making them pay back taxes. That would be a nice start. The “must learn English” requirement is also bullshit of the smelliest sort. Politicians talk about back taxes to placate the drooling mob because it’s too complicated to explain that illegal immigrants already pay a lot of taxes and that a shit tonne of employer taxes that would have to be reassessed. Can’t say I blame them. The fact remains that you seem to have misrepresented your linked article. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/444 "2018-01-23T05:24:17Z")
In what way? That drooling mob decide who our elected officials are. If you have to lie to them to get your way and save your hides, don’t be mad when others point out the lies. There is no back taxes requirement and there will never be one. There is no requirement to learn English. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/445 "2018-01-23T05:33:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In what way? In the way I already explicitly spelled out. In the post you quoted that includes the word “wow”. > [@](#): > > That drooling mob decide who our elected officials are. If you have to lie to them to get your way and save your hides, don’t be mad when others point out the lies. There is no back taxes requirement and there will never be one. There is no requirement to learn English. I’m not mad. I’m just recognizing reality. With no back taxes provision we will simply have the status quo of the IRS going after taxes it thinks it can collect. Why on earth does there need to be any mention of taxes at all? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/446 "2018-01-23T05:40:28Z")
Because Americans won’t accept unconditional amnesty except maybe for Dreamers. So I ask, if I use fake documents to get a job, do I get amnesty? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/447 "2018-01-23T05:44:49Z")
This Harris poll shows that Trump is winning the messaging war: 65% of Americans want improved enforcement and immigration changes as a condition for implementing DACA. > **[Final\_HHP\_Jan2018-Refield\_RegisteredVoters\_XTab.pdf](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Final_HHP_Jan2018-Refield_RegisteredVoters_XTab.pdf)** > > 1134.69 KB ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/448 "2018-01-23T05:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The individual elements of each of Trump’s demands remain broadly popular as well. On the most controversial subject of the border wall, 53 percent of respondents said they supported “building a combination of physical and electronic barriers across the US-Mexico border,” and 61 percent said current security along the US-Mexico border is inadequate. > > 79 percent of respondents said they believed “immigration priority for those coming to the U.S. should be based on a person’s ability to contribute to America as measured by their education and skills or based on a person having relatives in the US.” The statement is broadly representative of Trump’s bid to end chain migration via family ties and prioritize immigration policy that favors high skilled individuals. > > The diversity visa lottery program saw a similar 68 percent disapproval by voters. > **[POLL: Majority Of Americans Agree With Trump On DACA, Immigration](https://dailycaller.com/2018/01/22/poll-majority-of-americans-agree-with-trump-on-daca-immigration/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social)** > > Voters across both party lines are largely in agreement with President Donald Trump's immigration priorities, a new Harvard-Harris Poll finds.  You know you’re wrong, when you are losing a national debate to Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/449 "2018-01-23T05:49:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Because Americans won’t accept unconditional amnesty except maybe for Dreamers. > > So I ask, if I use fake documents to get a job, do I get amnesty? Amnesty from what, for fucks sake? Here is a direct question: If they passed a law tomorrow that said nothing more than “everyone who was entered into the Dreamer program is now a US citizen” do you think they are free of back taxes? And the point remains that you misrepresented the article you linked. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/450 "2018-01-23T05:54:19Z")
And I ask again, in what way? You are free of back taxes if the IRS is uninterested in finding out how much you owe. Immigrants wanting amnesty should be made to provide a full accounting of their actions while here illegally. One of the primary conditions for amnesty from any crime normally is confession. Where did they work, how much money did they make, how did they handle their W-4, what was the fake SS# they supplied, did they apply for a taxpayer ID as they are supposed to, and how did they get around documentation requirements to get their job? If the IRS knows I had a job that I didn’t pay taxes on, you can be damn sure they’ll make me come up with that information. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/451 "2018-01-23T05:58:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the IRS knows I had a job that I didn’t pay taxes on, you can be damn sure they’ll make me come up with that information. So what’s the problem? Why does that problem have to be solved in a child immigrant law? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/452 "2018-01-23T06:06:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [Reform tied to immigrant taxes](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/28/immigration-reform-taxes/2119353/) > > As the article points out, this has been a feature of every immigration reform bill except for the 1986 one, which basically forgave immigrants who avoided taxes. > > We don’t know what a future deal will involve, but if there is any special tax treatment for Dreamers, it must apply to all Americans who are delinquent. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Okay. Wow. I just read the USA Today article you linked, adaher. I would now love you to quote the place where it poins out there were “complicated provisions” in every immigrtion bill on back taxes since 1986. Because a text search only gives one hit for “1986”. > > > [@](#): > > > > The Immigration Reform and Control Act, a 1986 law that provided amnesty to nearly 3 million undocumented immigrants, did not include a back-taxes requirement. > > Since, as far as the IRS is concerned, back taxes are damn well required if you made any money, you have to do a lot better than that. > > I’m sure we both know that investigating past income of Dreamers would be a nightmare which is why most sane policy makers want to pretend it doesn’t exist. You can also spell out how every bill “basically forgave” all back taxes. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/453 "2018-01-23T06:17:54Z")
If paying back taxes aren’t required for amnesty, and the IRS is uninterested in investigating employment and tax history, then they are actually getting away with something American citizens don’t get away with. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/454 "2018-01-23T06:23:41Z")
Paying back taxes is required of all residents who work in the US. There is no need to tack on “you must pay taxes” on to any new legislation. The idea that it’s important is populist bullshit, which I thought you felt yourself immune to. And the fact remains that you seem to have misrepresented the article you linked. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/455 "2018-01-23T06:26:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > …Americans take a dim view of special treatment. Do they, now? Well. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/456 "2018-01-23T06:27:33Z")
In what way? The carrot for the dumb rubes you resent is that in order to become officially legal, immigrants have to well, get legal. Paying their taxes is conditional to get permanent legal status. Well, not really, wink wink, but that’s what the public expects. We don’t get a break when we fail to report income. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/457 "2018-01-23T06:38:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In what way? Why are you doing this? You said “As the article points out, this has been a feature of every immigration reform bill except for the 1986 one, which basically forgave immigrants who avoided taxes.” But the article does not point this out. It does nothing of the sort as far as I can see so I have trouble imagining you’re making a simple mistake even. It’s only for amusements’ sake I’ve even carried it this far since you seem so obtuse and oblivious. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/458 "2018-01-23T07:39:01Z")
If the IRS isn’t interested in looking, then it’s a tax amnesty. Meanwhile, Americans get harassed because someone used their SSN to get a job and checked the “exempt” box so they could have more take home pay, and the IRS wants it’s money. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/459 "2018-01-23T11:04:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You are free of back taxes if the IRS is uninterested in finding out how much you owe. Immigrants wanting amnesty should be made to provide a full accounting of their actions while here illegally. One of the primary conditions for amnesty from any crime normally is confession. Where did they work, how much money did they make, how did they handle their W-4, what was the fake SS# they supplied, did they apply for a taxpayer ID as they are supposed to, and how did they get around documentation requirements to get their job? As someone who supports DACA and immigrants, I do think this is a good idea. Give amnesty and turn them against the real criminals, the rat bastard cheating employers who caused this situation. > [@](#): > > If the IRS knows I had a job that I didn’t pay taxes on, you can be damn sure they’ll make me come up with that information. Well… yes, for you, a citizen who has an authentic paper trail, and probably earned enough income to tax, yes. For an undocumented chicken farmer… probably not. There’s likely no document of their earnings, which probably aren’t large enough to be taxable anyway. That does matter to the IRS because their purpose isn’t punishment, it’s revenue collection. Unless of course Senator Asshole pushes an amendment saying that amnesty-seekers must back-file and pay historic non-filing penalties for years when they had no taxable earnings, which would just be bad policy. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/460 "2018-01-23T13:59:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We don’t get a break when we fail to report income. How many people in the US work for cash? I’d wager 75% of those underreport income. > [@adaher](#): > > If the IRS isn’t interested in looking, then it’s a tax amnesty. Meanwhile, Americans get harassed because someone used their SSN to get a job and checked the “exempt” box so they could have more take home pay, and the IRS wants it’s money. Cite that this is a significantly large issue? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=24)