# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/461 "2018-01-23T14:17:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This Harris poll shows that Trump is winning the messaging war: 65% of Americans want improved enforcement and immigration changes as a condition for implementing DACA. > > [http://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Final\_HHP\_Jan2018-Refield\_RegisteredVoters\_XTab.pdf](http://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Final_HHP_Jan2018-Refield_RegisteredVoters_XTab.pdf) Literally nobody in Washington is arguing against better border security in a DACA deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/462 "2018-01-23T14:19:24Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Speaking of the work permits, how have these DACA folks worked from when they turned 18 until DACA was implemented, without breaking any existing laws? An excellent question for their employers. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/463 "2018-01-23T14:39:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Speaking of the work permits, how have these DACA folks worked from when they turned 18 until DACA was implemented, without breaking any existing laws? DACA recipients can apply for renewal every two years, and so long as they’re under that protected status they can legally work, pay taxes, etc. It [looks like](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals#Renewals) renewals were pretty easy to obtain. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/464 "2018-01-23T14:51:34Z")
Perhaps the DACA debate can continue [in this thread I just opened on that specific subject.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=847655) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/465 "2018-01-23T15:03:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the IRS isn’t interested in looking, then it’s a tax amnesty. Meanwhile, **Americans get harassed because someone used their SSN to get a job** and checked the “exempt” box so they could have more take home pay, and the IRS wants it’s money. The IRS needs to fix their record matching. How can a stockbroker in NYC also be picking tomatoes in California? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/466 "2018-01-23T15:46:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Poor stupid me, all I did was go to the official site for [Oregon.gov](http://Oregon.gov) and give the same answer they gave. :rolleyes: Did that site explain that the Supreme Court has said that states can’t add to or subtract from the conditions the Constitution sets forth for qualification for Congress, and that when New Jersey (which also has a recall law) tried to use it to recall Senator Robert Menendez, the courts specifically cited that Supreme Court language in smacking down that request? Apparently it did not. Which would make that site’s information accurate (the law is on the books) but very misleading (the inference is that it can be used, and it can’t). I’m sure you didn’t wish to be accurate but misleading, so I rushed right in to correct the issue. You can thank me any time. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/467 "2018-01-23T15:56:16Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The IRS needs to fix their record matching. How can a stockbroker in NYC also be picking tomatoes in California? Bear market? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/468 "2018-01-23T16:02:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did that site explain that the Supreme Court has said that states can’t add to or subtract from the conditions the Constitution sets forth for qualification for Congress, and that when New Jersey (which also has a recall law) tried to use it to recall Senator Robert Menendez, the courts specifically cited that Supreme Court language in smacking down that request? > > Apparently it did not. Which would make that site’s information accurate (the law is on the books) but very misleading (the inference is that it can be used, and it can’t). > > I’m sure you didn’t wish to be accurate but misleading, so I rushed right in to correct the issue. You can thank me any time. Thank you for what-posting the titles of court cases without explaining how they pertained to the question at hand? Once again, I(and, I dare say, most of us) am not a lawyer, and this isn’t a court of law. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/469 "2018-01-23T16:07:25Z")
Don’t you think you’d better go tell the Oregon Attorney General how he’s basically wrong about a key part of his state’s laws? I’m sure he’d appreciate some correction. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/470 "2018-01-23T16:33:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Don’t you think you’d better go tell the Oregon Attorney General how he’s basically wrong about a key part of his state’s laws? I’m sure he’d appreciate some correction. I don’t have his email but you can send him this link if you have it: [The Committee to Recall Robert Menendez v. Nina Wells](https://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-court/2010/a-86-09-opn.html) > [@](#): > > HELD: The matter is ripe for adjudication and the text and history of the Federal Constitution, as well as the principles of the democratic system it created, do not allow the states the power to recall U.S. Senators. Those portions of the UREL and the State Constitution which authorize the recall of U.S. Senators are unconstitutional. IANAL, but that seems to have ended at the New Jersey Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/471 "2018-01-23T16:40:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the IRS isn’t interested in looking, then it’s a tax amnesty. Meanwhile, Americans get harassed because someone used their SSN to get a job and checked the “exempt” box so they could have more take home pay, and the IRS wants it’s money. So you’re in favor of additional funding for the IRS to go after more missing tax payments? Since the GOP seems to generally be reducing such funding? Note that, even with more funding, the IRS would be get a lot more bang for their buck auditing returns like mine than people making less than the median/mean income. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/472 "2018-01-23T16:45:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We’re not at that stage yet, but under the 2013 immigration reform bill that passed the Senate, there were complicated provisions covering back taxes. > > [Reform tied to immigrant taxes](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/28/immigration-reform-taxes/2119353/) > > As the article points out, this has been a feature of every immigration reform bill except for the 1986 one, which basically forgave immigrants who avoided taxes. > > We don’t know what a future deal will involve, but if there is any special tax treatment for Dreamers, it must apply to all Americans who are delinquent. So,\* you got nothing,\* there is no special treatment, no one is getting taxes forgiven. Note that even if there is no special requirement for back taxes, that doesnt mean they are getting tax amnesty. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/473 "2018-01-23T16:48:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 14th amendment: equal protection of the laws. You cannot forgive taxes for one group of people without forgiving taxes for all. No one, under any provision would have their taxes forgiven. Some suggested ideas for amnesty maybe would not require that the immigrant have to hew to special requirements for back taxes.\*\* But nothing, no where, at all, ever suggested any immegtrant get special tax amnesty. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/474 "2018-01-23T16:48:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are the DACA recipients somehow more important that the 9 million children who benefit from CHIP, which is out of money due to the shutdown? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes. I have a bit of sympathy for their plight, but it’s similar to the sympathy I have for the children of bank robbers or drug dealers that get sent to prison: that sucks that you’re going to be separated from your parents. Good luck. How about the grandchildren of bank robbers and drug dealers? The kids in question are kids of people who were brought here themselves as children. So, if you have little sympathy for children because their parents turn to criminal behaviors, does that lack of sympathy extend to their children as well? How many generations do you think should have to pay? > [@adaher](#): > > Because Americans won’t accept unconditional amnesty except maybe for Dreamers. > > So I ask, if I use fake documents to get a job, do I get amnesty? If you use fake documents for a job, what is your punishment? A fine, right? If the punishment for using fake documents to get a job was to remove you from the country that you have known your entire life and to get dropped off in a foreign country where you don’t know the language, the culture, have any contacts, money or resources, then that would be an appropriate punishment for Dreamers as well. I have no problem with dreamers or other people who provided false documentation in order to obtain work in the US paying a fine. Deporting them over it though, that does seem a bit extreme. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > As someone who supports DACA and immigrants, I do think this is a good idea. Give amnesty and turn them against the real criminals, the rat bastard cheating employers who caused this situation. Problem is is that most employers who employed them were provided with documentation that was in line with the documentation that is required. That is was fraudulent should not be a punishment to the employer. The employers who should be punished are the ones that pay under the table, they know very well that they are breaking the law, but there is no record of that, so it’s a bit harder to prosecute. And not just the ones that employed undocumented immigrants either. Paying under the table is quite common with people who are perfectly eligible to work as well. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/475 "2018-01-23T16:51:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If paying back taxes aren’t required for amnesty, and the IRS is uninterested in investigating employment and tax history, then they are actually getting away with something American citizens don’t get away with. Nope. It just means they are getting the same treatment as every other American taxpayer. That the IRS will investigate them for unpaid back taxes exactly the same as they would anyone else. You are totally and completely wrong on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/476 "2018-01-23T17:10:14Z")
Here we see the standard GOP-loyalist stereotype of the Illegal Immigrant as a criminal drug-smuggling tax cheat etc. (and some, I’m sure, are good people). But [they’re \*more \*likely](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/)to be conscientious taxpayers than those with the privilege of birth, and they pay into Social Security without getting any benefits from it. You can’t claim it on a fake number, remember. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/477 "2018-01-23T18:04:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank you for what-posting the titles of court cases without explaining how they pertained to the question at hand? Once again, I(and, I dare say, most of us) am not a lawyer, and this isn’t a court of law. You’re welcome. CZARCASM: Here’s what the law says about this subject: xxx xx xxxx xxx xx. BRICKER: That’s not accurate. CZARCASM: This isn’t a court of law! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/478 "2018-01-23T18:11:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Deporting them over it though, that does seem a bit extreme… Deporting to Denmark or Norway, not so bad. To El Salvador or Guatemala? By comparison, Mexico isn’t _too_ bad. Pretty bad, but not _that_ bad. Drug gangs in Mexico won’t kill your whole family to make a point. Not usually. So, there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/479 "2018-01-23T18:12:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re welcome. > > CZARCASM: Here’s what the law says about this subject: xxx xx xxxx xxx xx. > > BRICKER: That’s not accurate. > > CZARCASM: This isn’t a court of law! You forget to add “Neener, neener!” Otherwise, that’s a very…creative…summation, counselor. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/480 "2018-01-23T18:28:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > How can you do that? You just quoted all the reasons it’s not the Democrats fault. They did the compromising. They’ve done all they can. Most Republicans also compromised, so they are not at fault. The Trump-supporting Republicans and Trump himself refuse to accept the compromise, saying my way or the highway. > > That is always the person who is responsible. The person who refuses to accept the compromise. That was why Republicans were to blame before, and it is why Trumpian Republicans are to blame now. > > It is not good for anyone to support Trump and take an untennable interpretation that makes it not his fault. He said he would accept a compromise. He got one. He didn’t accept it. Therefore he is at fault. > > Not only did he refuse the compromise, but he also lied. The liar in negotiation is always the one at fault. > > There is no factual evaluation of this that makes it the Democrats fault, nor the fault of most Republicans. Democrats together with most Republicans would be able to pass anything. The fact of the matter is that it is Democrats that were refusing to pass a continuing resolution (not even a budget, a continuing resolution) that gave them CHIP funding for 6 years. It was Democrats employing the filibuster to prevent legislation that would have funded the government, so yes I blame the minority party for pretty much any shutdown. I don’t think this shutdown was as bad as the one over repealing Obamacare but its still a Democratic shutdown. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=25)