# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/521 "2018-01-24T23:12:59Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > That would seriously depopulate Mexico. They said that Mexico would pay for the wall, they just didn’t say how. We get them to come up here and work and pay taxes, and that pays for it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/522 "2018-01-24T23:21:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Democrats shut the government down over DACA. It’s not propaganda, and that’s exactly how most of the mainstream media reported it. Democrats cried bloody murder over that reporting, then many of them turned right around and slammed Democrats for allowing the government that they say they didn’t shut down over DACA to reopen without getting what they wanted on DACA. The democrats had negotiated a deal with Trump. Then Trump backed out of it. That’s why the government shut down. After negotiating in good faith and having the results of that negotiation not honored, it is not the dems fault that it took time to renegotiate. Or are you saying that after trump backed out, they should have just signed onto any deal at all that was presented to them? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/523 "2018-01-24T23:27:40Z")
That’s a legitimate argument to make, but the fact remains that the government shut down because the Democrats voted against the CR. Over DACA. Now if Jon Tester and Bill Nelson want to publicly debate the justification for their actions, that’s fine, but it is not a lie or propaganda to say that they shut the government down over illegal immigrants. I don’t recall Democrats ever shutting down the government over DREAMERs while Obama was President. Just wasn’t a priority then. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/524 "2018-01-24T23:33:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Or are you saying that after trump backed out, they should have just signed onto any deal at all that was presented to them? Obviously they should sign anything The Donald puts in front of them. Donnie could drive at the age of three. In junior high school, Donnie corrected and chastised his teachers for incorrectly interpreting history. The first time he picked up a golf club, Donnie shot 38 under par, and 11 holes in one. Not to mention Donnie is a very stable genius, has the world’s highest IG, has the best brains, uses the best words, and makes the best deals. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/525 "2018-01-24T23:35:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay then, how about a deal then, for every 25k over the 18b, we get to give another undocumented immigrant a green card. I’d be fine with that, but neither of us gets a vote in Congress. I will observe that this “deal” that you and I are hashing out is probably a whole lot closer to the Republicans’ position than the Democrats’. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/526 "2018-01-24T23:58:51Z")
A figure I’d heard earlier was $18B, now it’s apparently $25B-30B. That’s some serious inflation! > [@](#): > > [The president told reporters wants $25 billion for a border wall with Mexico and $5 billion for other security measures – $30 billion in total. The president said he thinks he will get a wall and great border security. The president said he wants to deal with DACA first, then move to a broader immigration bill that will deal with things like chain migration. > > “Well I can tell you this — if you don’t have a wall you don’t have DACA,” Mr. Trump said.]([Trump is "looking forward" to Mueller interview, wants citizenship for Dreamers - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-is-looking-forward-to-mueller-interview-wants-citizenship-for-younger-immigrants/)) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/527 "2018-01-25T00:00:22Z")
It actually sounds like the administration is coalescing behind something. They’ll probably get 80% of what they are asking for. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/528 "2018-01-25T00:09:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > has the world’s highest IG Typo. Should have been IQ. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/529 "2018-01-25T11:54:33Z")
I just noted a [a mini-documentary about Stephen Miller’s long career as a hater.](https://youtu.be/2I6QCjRBQak?t=3m37s) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/530 "2018-01-25T14:44:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s a legitimate argument to make, but the fact remains that the government shut down because the Democrats voted against the CR. Over DACA. Now if Jon Tester and Bill Nelson want to publicly debate the justification for their actions, that’s fine, but it is not a lie or propaganda to say that they shut the government down over illegal immigrants. > > I don’t recall Democrats ever shutting down the government over DREAMERs while Obama was President. Just wasn’t a priority then. It is a legitimate argument to make, and there are many complex and nuanced issues involved. That is why it is rather disingenuous to declare that the govt shut down because the dems favored DACA over funding the govt. It is not that simple, and trying to make it that simple is what is propaganda. It may convince some people out there, more than I would like. But for the purposes of actually having a discussion about policy, repeating soundbites does not make any progress. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d be fine with that, but neither of us gets a vote in Congress. I will observe that this “deal” that you and I are hashing out is probably a whole lot closer to the Republicans’ position than the Democrats’. My politics are informed by pragmatism, not ideology (unless pragmatism is an ideology). The dems do line up with my pragmatic views on how to improve the country and the world more these days than republicans, but I have no particular loyalty to the party. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > A figure I’d heard earlier was $18B, now it’s apparently $25B-30B. That’s some serious inflation! Yeah, like I said, it’s not going to stay at 18b. But hey, that’s another 280,000 to 480,000 green cards, yay! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/531 "2018-01-25T17:52:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The whole “favored illegal immigrants over keeping the government open” is just pure propaganda. > > Not saying that it will not work with poorly informed voters, and yo may be right that there are enough poorly informed voters in Montana to vote him out, but it really is just gaslighting to actually try to claim that that is actually what happened. > > People will be fooled by that statement, but you aren’t fooling anyone here. According to the U.S. Constitution, it’s the duty of Congress to fund the government. According to the rules of the U.S. Senate, 60 votes are needed to pass funding bills. The majority party, the Republicans, only hold 51 seats in the U.S. Senate. The minority party, the Democrats, refused to pass a government funding bill because they chose to hold government funding hostage over the rights of non-U.S. citizens. The Democrats chose to support the “rights” of illegal aliens instead of the needs of U.S. citizens. Future voters will vote according to their best interests. Will the voters forget/ignore the fact that Democrats closed the government to promote the rights of illegal aliens? Only time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/532 "2018-01-25T18:03:14Z")
And there is no way, absolutely no way at all, that Republicans could have gotten it passed without any “Yea” votes from Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/533 "2018-01-25T18:08:36Z")
And they had no reason even to try? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/534 "2018-01-25T18:18:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > According to the U.S. Constitution, it’s the duty of Congress to fund the government. > According to the rules of the U.S. Senate, 60 votes are needed to pass funding bills. > The majority party, the Republicans, only hold 51 seats in the U.S. Senate. > The minority party, the Democrats, refused to pass a government funding bill because they chose to hold government funding hostage over the rights of non-U.S. citizens. > The Democrats chose to support the “rights” of illegal aliens instead of the needs of U.S. citizens. > > Future voters will vote according to their best interests. Will the voters forget/ignore the fact that Democrats closed the government to promote the rights of illegal aliens? Only time will tell. If that’s what you have to tell yourself in order to get to sleep at night, you do you. And if that’s what you feel will convince low information voters to vote for conservatives, it’s a valid strategy, might even work. Just don’t pretend that you are actually fooling anyone that actually does know better. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/535 "2018-01-25T18:45:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And there is no way, absolutely no way at all, that Republicans could have gotten it passed without any “Yea” votes from Democrats? Are you making a reference to the “nuclear option”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/536 "2018-01-25T18:46:54Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > According to the U.S. Constitution, it’s the duty of Congress to fund the government. > According to the rules of the U.S. Senate, 60 votes are needed to pass funding bills. > The majority party, the Republicans, only hold 51 seats in the U.S. Senate. > The minority party, the Democrats, refused to pass a government funding bill because they chose to hold government funding hostage over the rights of non-U.S. citizens. > The Democrats chose to support the “rights” of illegal aliens instead of the needs of U.S. citizens. > > Future voters will vote according to their best interests. Will the voters forget/ignore the fact that Democrats closed the government to promote the rights of illegal aliens? Only time will tell. I’m pretty sure that most of America has already forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/537 "2018-01-25T18:50:35Z")
For the most part, but TV ads can always remind them. At least where it will do good. Having to defend very few Senate seats compared to Democrats gives Republicans a lot of advantages, and puts a lot of red state Democrats in a very tough position. About half of them voted yes on the CR and the other half pressured Schumer to listen to them instead of the wannabe Presidential candidates, who are taking hard lines and are willing to fight to the last red state Democrat in order to win their party’s Presidential nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/538 "2018-01-25T18:51:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you making a reference to the “nuclear option”? Is that a way that Republicans could have passed the bill without any Democrats voting “Yea”? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/539 "2018-01-25T18:54:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is that a way that Republicans could have passed the bill without any Democrats voting “Yea”? Yeah, but so is a coup in which we arrest all the Dems on trumped up charges, hold votes to expel them from Congress, and then vote with our new, shrunken, all-Republican Congress. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/540 "2018-01-25T19:23:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If that’s what you have to tell yourself in order to get to sleep at night, you do you. > > And if that’s what you feel will convince low information voters to vote for conservatives, it’s a valid strategy, might even work. > > Just don’t pretend that you are actually fooling anyone that actually does know better. (underline added) Hahahaha. “low information voters”??? Seriously? Is that how you expect to convince voters to support a Democrat candidate? Why would you believe that fooling you would even be a low-priority goal of myself, or anyone else? I’m entitled to my opinion just as much as you’re entitled to my opinion. p.s. You do you, too. (whatever that means?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=28)