# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/561 "2018-01-25T20:49:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > For the most part, but TV ads can always remind them. I live in Washington, DC, and I didn’t notice the shutdown (except that I actually had to work harder because of it, which is weird…). TV ads to remind people that Dems did something that nobody cares about for bad reasons… yeah, go with that strategy. It’s a winner, I tell you! A winner! “Senator Tester voted in favor of immigrants, and in doing so, harmed nothing!” > [@](#): > > At least where it will do good. Having to defend very few Senate seats compared to Democrats gives Republicans a lot of advantages, and puts a lot of red state Democrats in a very tough position. This is true. But let us remember that elections generally aren’t a referendum on a single person, but a comparison between two candidates. Republican primary voters have shown an astonishing predilection to picking the worst possible candidates in many close contests. It is quite possible that the bad Dem map may be mitigated by Republicans picking challengers like Todd “Legitimate Rape” Akin, Sharon “Healthcare Reform Involves More Bartering Chickens for Checkups” Angle, and Christine “I’m Not a Witch, I’m Far Weirder” O’Donnell. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/562 "2018-01-25T20:55:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … One option changes the senate rules slightly in accordance with the rules of the senate. I don’t think most Senators would call the nuclear option “slightly” changing the rules. It’s a really significant change that will have a far-reaching impact on the way that body operates. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > The other is an unconstitutional and most likely violent coup. > > Really, you don’t see any difference between the options? Of course there are differences between my coup scenario and the nuclear option, but there are similarities as well: both would be a radical step to achieve a political end. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/563 "2018-01-25T20:57:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Like they did for the recent Supreme Court nominee? I can’t remember, were you cool with that rule change? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/564 "2018-01-25T21:01:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Then you agree that in 2018, elected Democrats chose to shut down the government to promote illegal aliens. Like [this](https://www.thedailybeast.com/these-dreamers-are-prepared-to-fight-for-america-will-trump-let-them) son-of-a-bitch freeloading illegal immigrant. He looks Mexican, don’t he?!?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/565 "2018-01-25T21:04:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I can’t remember, were you cool with that rule change? I’m indifferent to it. What I am not cool with is one side blaming another when that side had the means to pass the bill any time they wanted, but don’t because they are afraid of losing power. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/566 "2018-01-25T21:12:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Hahahaha. First you insult potential voters by calling them “low information voters”, and then further insult them by saying they are easily swayed. Swayed by someone other than yourself, perhaps? > > Can you - _Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage_ - without insulting the very voters you would need if your intention is to change the majority party in the U.S. Senate? It is not an insult that there are people out there with busy lives to lead who do not consider politics a priority. What is insulting is when you use soundbites and logical fallacies to try to sway them. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think most Senators would call the nuclear option “slightly” changing the rules. It’s a really significant change that will have a far-reaching impact on the way that body operates. > Of course there are differences between my coup scenario and the nuclear option, but there are similarities as well: both would be a radical step to achieve a political end. Would you not agree that one is much, much, much more radical than the other? We’ve gone through the nuclear option on a couple of things, and no one has ended up in jail or purged from congress. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I can’t remember, were you cool with that rule change? You weren’t asking me, but as a refresher, I was all for it. I was for the democrats filibustering specifically so that the filibuster would be removed. In the budget bill, I was against the democrats filibustering it, which they did, against my advice…, but I would be all for filibustering a budget bill if the likely outcome was the removal of the filibuster. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/567 "2018-01-25T21:12:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m indifferent to it. What I am not cool with is one side blaming another when that side had the means to pass the bill any time they wanted, but don’t because they are afraid of losing power. “Well, you could have (done this crazy radical thing that almost no one actually wants done), so we’re not at fault for voting against the bill” isn’t a very compelling argument in my eyes, but, that’s ok, we’re all entitled to our own opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/568 "2018-01-25T21:14:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Well, you could have (done this crazy radical thing that almost no one actually wants done), so we’re not at fault for voting against the bill” isn’t a very compelling argument in my eyes, but, that’s ok, we’re all entitled to our own opinions. Calling something that was just done a couple of months ago “crazy radical” isn’t a very compelling argument in my eyes either. But opinions, you know? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/569 "2018-01-25T21:14:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Would you not agree that one is much, much, much more radical than the other? Yes, I would agree. The nuclear option is several steps short of a coup, but somewhere beyond the normal regular order of the Senate. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You weren’t asking me, but as a refresher, I was all for it. I was for the democrats filibustering specifically so that the filibuster would be removed. Yes, I remember your position on the matter. Removing the legislative filibuster is not a popular sentiment among Senators. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/570 "2018-01-25T21:18:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Calling something that was just done a couple of months ago “crazy radical” isn’t a very compelling argument in my eyes either. But opinions, you know? 🙂 I believe it’s been done twice in the history of the Senate, both times within the last few years, and during a period of heightened vitriol. I don’t think those involved, certainly those on the receiving end, felt like it was good or “normal” in any way shape or form. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/571 "2018-01-25T21:25:02Z")
I wouldn’t consider it normal either. Just more along the lines of “Sure, we could pass the bill if we really wanted to, but we are afraid that we won’t be in power forever, so we are not going to pass it and blame it on the Democrats even though we don’t actually need any of their votes” At least the Democrats have DACA recipients to show why they didn’t vote for it. Not simply “We might lose power”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/572 "2018-01-25T21:33:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I wouldn’t consider it normal either. Just more along the lines of “Sure, we could pass the bill if we really wanted to, but we are afraid that we won’t be in power forever, so we are not going to pass it and blame it on the Democrats even though we don’t actually need any of their votes” > > At least the Democrats have DACA recipients to show why they didn’t vote for it. Not simply “We might lose power”. You hold a bizarre view, and I’ve lost interest in discussing it with you. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/573 "2018-01-25T22:05:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I believe it’s been done twice in the history of the Senate, both times within the last few years, and during a period of heightened vitriol. I don’t think those involved, certainly those on the receiving end, felt like it was good or “normal” in any way shape or form. You believe what has been done twice? Nuking the filibuster, that’s only twice. But changing the filibuster, that’s happened several times through the senate’s history.It was never even intended, it was an accidental discovery that there were NO rules for ending debate. There was not culture. So that was the first change, adding in a rule that allowed debate to be ended by 2/3’d vote. Then they changed it further, making it 60 senators for culture, and changed it so that you could just file a procedural filibuster, rather than stand and refuse to yield the floor. If you also look at it, the filibuster was used pretty rarely, up until recent times. This isn’t 200 years of precedent to be overturned, it’s at most 40-50ish years of precedent. And most of that 40 years, the filibuster was used a couple times a year, at most. It is really only the past 20 years that it has been used on an increasing basis, culminating in 2008 when republicans declared that it simply required 60 votes to pass anything from now on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/574 "2018-01-26T00:39:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Then you agree that in 2018, elected Democrats chose to shut down the government to promote illegal aliens. See this is why you, and the racist and the xenophobes (not saying you are either) won’t get it. No, in 2018, elected Democrats did _not_ chose to shut down the government to promote\* illegal aliens\*, they choose to shut down the government to help \*people. \* ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/575 "2018-01-26T02:06:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You hold a bizarre view, and I’ve lost interest in discussing it with you. LOL, you hold a bizarre view, and it’s funny to me that when called on it, you give up. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/576 "2018-01-26T06:22:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s certainly one (very slanted) interpretation. If they really cared about exercising power, then the nuclear option would be the way to go. It’s the fact that they’d like to maintain some semblance of bipartisanship and regular order in the Senate that they haven’t. I think your post, including your interpretation of ‘very slanted’ is … very slanted. The ‘if they were power corrupt then they would have gone nuclear’ is a fallacy (I wish I had all the fallacy names memorized 🙂 ) similar to ‘if Trump were really a rapist then he would have raped Sarah H. Sanders by now.’ But finally, although you qualify it with ‘some semblance’ I wish we could hear that last sentence in person, out loud. Were you rolling your eyes, stifling a laugh? John McCain voted against destroying Obamacare NOT because he cared about the uninsured, but because he resented the deviation from ‘regular order.’ The passage of the tax bill — which was covered with handwritten scrawls for heaven’s sake — had enough ‘semblance of order’ to get McCain’s vote, yet still drew this comment: > [@Norman Ornstein](#): > > **There has never been a more outrageous, revolting, unfair process to pass a corrupted bill in the history of Congress. That Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Jeff Flake, John McCain, Lindsey Graham have endorsed this makes anything positive they have done get erased. Unconscionable** Norm Ornstein, BTW, is not some baby-killing liberal at Trump\_Haters\_R\_Us. He’s the top Congressional scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/577 "2018-01-26T07:01:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > > > That’s certainly one (very slanted) interpretation. If they really cared about exercising power, then the nuclear option would be the way to go. It’s the fact that they’d like to maintain some semblance of bipartisanship and regular order in the Senate that they haven’t. > > I think your post, including your interpretation of ‘very slanted’ is … very slanted. The ‘if they were power corrupt then they would have gone nuclear’ is a fallacy (I wish I had all the fallacy names memorized 🙂 ) similar to ‘if Trump were really a rapist then he would have raped Sarah H. Sanders by now.’ > > But finally, although you qualify it with ‘some semblance’ I wish we could hear that last sentence in person, out loud. Were you rolling your eyes, stifling a laugh? > > John McCain voted against destroying Obamacare NOT because he cared about the uninsured, but because he resented the deviation from ‘regular order.’ The passage of the tax bill — which was covered with handwritten scrawls for heaven’s sake — had enough ‘semblance of order’ to get McCain’s vote, yet still drew this comment: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Norman Ornstein** > > > > _There has never been a more outrageous, revolting, unfair process to pass a corrupted bill in the history of Congress. That Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Jeff Flake, John McCain, Lindsey Graham have endorsed this makes anything positive they have done get erased. Unconscionable_. > > Norm Ornstein, BTW, is not some baby-killing liberal at Trump\_Haters\_R\_Us. He’s the top Congressional scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. **HD** is right on the what, but not the why. They maintain that semblance of bipartisanship because they fear the time when the shoe is on the other foot. Simple politics and nothing more, and certainly not some high-minded morality. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/578 "2018-01-26T17:55:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Like [this](https://www.thedailybeast.com/these-dreamers-are-prepared-to-fight-for-america-will-trump-let-them) son-of-a-bitch freeloading illegal immigrant. He looks Mexican, don’t he?!?!?! According to your linked article, “The immigrant from Queens was Harminder Saini, whose family had brought him from India to America when he was 6”. Can I assume that YOU chose that particular picture because Saini looks “Mexican” to YOU? Can I also assume that YOU know Saini’s mother? How did YOU arrive at the conclusion that Saini’s mother is a bitch? I understand that haters gotta hate, but I think you owe Harminder Saini, and his mother, an apology. just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/579 "2018-01-26T18:02:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > See this is why you, and the racist and the xenophobes (not saying you are either) won’t get it. No, in 2018, elected Democrats did _not_ chose to shut down the government to promote\* illegal aliens\*, they choose to shut down the government to help \*people. \* In 2018, Elected Democrats chose to stop funding the government, choosing to ignore the needs of We the People of the United States, in order to promote the rights of illegal aliens. The big question now is whether or not the voters will consider this fact to be a plus, minus, or meh when they next go to the voting booths. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/580 "2018-01-26T18:05:07Z")
Wow, if only there was a way to get some insight into that! Is there some way to, like, ask people what they think about stuff? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=30)