# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/41 "2018-01-19T16:51:42Z")
I certainly don’t know what’s going to happen, but it seems likely that 40-some-odd Democrats, joined by some single-digit number of Republicans, will vote against the spending bill. I’m fine with blaming that group of Senators for the shutdown. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/42 "2018-01-19T16:54:54Z")
The president and GOP have been jerking around on DACA and adhering to regular order has just screwed the Democrats time and again as the GOP throws it out the window for their own gains. That’s defense enough for me at this point. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/43 "2018-01-19T16:55:54Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > There’s clearly a bipartisan majority for passing something like the DREAM Act or something substantially similar to the DACA executive order. But the Republican leadership won’t allow a vote on it because of the existence of hardliners who simply want anyone undocumented out of here as soon as possible, regardless of circumstances. From what I can tell that’s a pretty minority position, but for whatever reason it’s being allowed to dominate the negotiations. I don’t think that’s exactly it. I think the average GOP MoC wants a DACA-like fix. I think the Dems want a DACA-like fix. I think leadership is assuming (and I think they are right) that the Dems want it more than the GOP wants it, so they are trying to use it as a carrot, which also happens to appease those in the GOP who don’t want it or who want it to cut immigration. Trump really fucked them over. And, to be clear, the House DACA bill does some things that are completely beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/44 "2018-01-19T16:56:01Z")
Democrats want a long term solution to DACA and SCHIP. When republicans blocked the budget in the past it was just to make Obama look bad. The democrats are blocking it because they want meaningful reform on important issues. Also the GOP still controls the house, senate and presidency. They are the party in charge and can deal with the consequences of being poor leaders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/45 "2018-01-19T16:59:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Several people have made this point, but I can’t fathom what they mean. Everyone knows that the Senate works with a filibuster. On what basis would people be saying that the “party out of power” is not to blame if the cause of the shutdown is them using their filibuster power to block the legislation? Firstly, because the party in power sets the agenda and chooses what bills come to the floor – if they don’t account for the numbers and the opposition party’s desires, then they bare a share of that blame (perhaps I should have said “all the blame” earlier). But in this particular case, the party out of power is actually siding with the earlier statements of the President, sentiments expressed by multiple leaders on both sides, and public polling on the issue in dispute. Add to that that it seems very possible that the Republicans won’t even have enough to pass it even if the Democrats vote for cloture, and it’s even sillier, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/46 "2018-01-19T16:59:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I certainly don’t know what’s going to happen, but it seems likely that 40-some-odd Democrats, joined by some single-digit number of Republicans, will vote against the spending bill. I’m fine with blaming that group of Senators for the shutdown. You’re fine with inventing blame for something that has so far happened only in your imagination, but not with assigning blame to a failure that has \*already \*happened. How is everything always the other guys’ fault? How much more control of Congress do you need? How is that you “blame” rather than applaud this imagined group of Senators for doing the right thing for the country they were elected to serve? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/47 "2018-01-19T17:03:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How is everything always the other guys’ fault? This is the world Fox News has built. No matter what happens, it’s always the Democrats’ fault. The same way the GWB administration negotiating to move the US embassy in London is now Obama’s fault. It just has to be the Democrats. If that rule goes away, so does their whole worldview. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/48 "2018-01-19T17:08:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … How is everything always the other guys’ fault? It turns out the other guys are really bad. 😉 On a more serious note, I have not claimed that “everything always” is their fault. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How much more control of Congress do you need? 60 votes in the Senate would be nice. 67 would be even better. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How is that you “blame” rather than applaud this imagined group of Senators for doing the right thing for the country they were elected to serve? I don’t think shutting down the government over DACA is “doing the right thing for the country”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/49 "2018-01-19T17:09:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … assigning blame to a failure that has \*already \*happened. … What are you referring to here? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/50 "2018-01-19T17:11:29Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > … And, to be clear, the House DACA bill does some things that are completely beyond the pale. I haven’t read it. Could you summarize the things it does that are “completely beyond the pale” for us? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/51 "2018-01-19T17:12:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > On a more serious note, I have not claimed that “everything always” is their fault. But this one, you do. Let’s just focus on that, shall we? > [@](#): > > 60 votes in the Senate would be nice. 67 would be even better. I asked what you _need_. How is majority control not enough? Whose are the failures? > [@](#): > > I don’t think shutting down the government over DACA is “doing the right thing for the country”. (A) What did you think about the Republicans’ repeated shutdowns during the Obama administration over raising the debt ceiling, iow paying the bills they ran up? (B) How is refusing to pass DACA or CHIP the right thing for the country? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/52 "2018-01-19T17:14:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Firstly, because the party in power sets the agenda and chooses what bills come to the floor – if they don’t account for the numbers and the opposition party’s desires, then they bare a share of that blame (perhaps I should have said “all the blame” earlier). But in this particular case, the party out of power is actually siding with the earlier statements of the President, sentiments expressed by multiple leaders on both sides, and public polling on the issue in dispute. Add to that that it seems very possible that the Republicans won’t even have enough to pass it even if the Democrats vote for cloture, and it’s even sillier, IMO. Your earlier statement that I objected to was a blanket statement that “it’s already pretty silly to blame the party out of power if a shutdown happens”. What you’re saying now sounds like other reasons that (you feel) apply in this particular case. I don’t agree, but that’s not what I was discussing. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/53 "2018-01-19T17:26:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I haven’t read it. Could you summarize the things it does that are “completely beyond the pale” for us? I’ll let the Cato Institute, that bastion of Democrats, do so: > [@](#): > > Republicans are essentially asking Democrats to trade the legalization of 700,000 unauthorized immigrants for the criminalization of all others, banning 2.6 million legal immigrants over the next decade, the elimination of almost all family sponsorship preference categories and the diversity visa lottery, deporting tens of thousands of asylum seekers, huge increases in border security spending, a massive new regulatory program that applies to every employee and employer in the country (“E-Verify”), and so much else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/54 "2018-01-19T17:28:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your earlier statement that I objected to was a blanket statement that “it’s already pretty silly to blame the party out of power if a shutdown happens”. What you’re saying now sounds like other reasons that (you feel) apply in this particular case. I don’t agree, but that’s not what I was discussing. The first sentence in the post you quoted was meant to respond to your objection to the blanket statement. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/55 "2018-01-19T17:29:37Z")
Curiously, I’m blocked from the first page of this thread with a “suspicious embedded link” cited as the reason. I’ll have to check it when I get back but the Democratic Senators are not holding the bill hostage. In order to be a hostage taker, you must be the one that wields the weapon. Republicans control everything, if they fail it’s all on them. If they spent half as much time trying to work out a solution as they do trying to figure out ways to blame Democrats, it would have been done months ago. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/56 "2018-01-19T17:33:11Z")
What will happen to those kids who are, essentially, Americans? Which is to say, _gringos_. Mexico is a mess, El Salvador is worse. We whine and tear our hair about how awful MS-13 is, and there is much truth in that. What happens to these people if we send them to Hell? They may or may not have adequate Spanish, but will they be welcomed as natives or scorned as _gringos_? How long before one of those gangs grabs one as a hostage, demanding money from someone in America? What’s going to stop them? These people have done nothing wrong. God help them, because we cannot. Or far worse, won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/57 "2018-01-19T17:34:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The first sentence in the post you quoted was meant to respond to your objection to the blanket statement. Other than backing off a bit I don’t see that you did. What you said boils down to it being the fault of the majority because they didn’t go along with what the minority wanted. Not much in that, that I can see … ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/58 "2018-01-19T17:35:17Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I’ll let the Cato Institute, that bastion of Democrats, do so: I’ll say this for the Cato Institute-While they lean heavily to the right, they won’t prostitute themselves to please the Republican Party or the Prez. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/59 "2018-01-19T17:38:45Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I’ll let the Cato Institute, that bastion of Democrats, do so: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ll say this for the Cato Institute-While they lean heavily to the right, they won’t prostitute themselves to please the Republican Party or the Prez. The Cato Institute is libertarian. Most libertarians tend to support open borders. If you think their arguments about immigration are going to be more persuasive because you didn’t understand that distinction, _shrug_ ETA: what of that was “completely beyond the pale”? Increased border spending? Ending chain migration? The diversity lottery? Deportations? E-verify? all those things seem pretty well within the political mainstream to me. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/60 "2018-01-19T17:43:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Cato Institute is libertarian. Most libertarians tend to support open borders. If you think their arguments about immigration are going to be more persuasive because you didn’t understand that distinction, _shrug_ I have no interest in persuading you of things, and no idea why you think I want to. You’re the one who asked. Now you know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=4)