# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/61 "2018-01-19T17:44:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Most libertarians tend to support open borders. [Until they get to congress](https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/rand-paul-real-libertarian). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/62 "2018-01-19T17:45:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > … I’ll have to check it when I get back but the Democratic Senators are not holding the bill hostage. In order to be a hostage taker, you must be the one that wields the weapon. Republicans control everything… The filibuster is the weapon. How can you not understand this? The Dems aren’t powerless. They know it too. You probably know it too. Why pretend otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/63 "2018-01-19T17:46:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ll say this for the Cato Institute-While they lean heavily to the right, they won’t prostitute themselves to please the Republican Party or the Prez. I think they do, just not on immigration. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/64 "2018-01-19T17:47:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The filibuster is the weapon. How can you not understand this? The Dems aren’t powerless. They know it too. You probably know it too. Why pretend otherwise? The Republicans don’t even have 50 votes. I say vote for cloture and then allow the vote. McCain isn’t there, Paul will not vote for it, among others. Let Schumer call the bluff, allow a vote and watch it go down. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/65 "2018-01-19T17:47:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > [Until they get to congress](https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/rand-paul-real-libertarian). Eh, he’s one of those joining the Dems in threatening to shut down the federal government over DACA, isn’t he? And for a libertarian, that seems like a win either way: ‘You mean I can either shut down the federal government or get looser immigration rules? Hell yes I’m on board!’ ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/66 "2018-01-19T17:48:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The Republicans don’t even have 50 votes. I say vote for cloture and then allow the vote. McCain isn’t there, Paul will not vote for it, among others. Let Schumer call the bluff, allow a vote and watch it go down. That would seem to be the best bet for minimizing blame for the government shutdown. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/67 "2018-01-19T17:50:34Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I think they do, just not on immigration. It’s not really prostitution if they are consistent. Most of their goals(except for immigration) fall in line with the _stated_ goals of the Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/68 "2018-01-19T17:51:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Firstly, because the party in power sets the agenda and chooses what bills come to the floor – if they don’t account for the numbers and the opposition party’s desires, then they bare a share of that blame (perhaps I should have said “all the blame” earlier). But in this particular case, the party out of power is actually siding with the earlier statements of the President, sentiments expressed by multiple leaders on both sides, and public polling on the issue in dispute. Add to that that it seems very possible that the Republicans won’t even have enough to pass it even if the Democrats vote for cloture, and it’s even sillier, IMO. If the US were less powerful and I didn’t live here, I’d think their incompetence funny. They are fucking this governing thing up pretty badly and nearly all of it is just them, not the Democrats at all. That said, I think it’s unwise to act like the Democrats aren’t doing anything. Let’s give credit where it’s due and blame where it’s due. The Democrats could be caving in and getting nothing. I don’t want to minimize the political risk they are taking by acting like it isn’t any of their doing. In other words, let’s not say “Oh, the Democrats aren’t really making any threats” and then turning around and say “Oh, the Democrats really got this thing done.” They are clearly making threats in an attempt to accomplish something. That they are in a position to make these threats is largely because of the incompetence and, in come cases, chicanery of the Republicans, but so what? We are responsible for our actions even if the other side does something really fucking stupid that makes our actions the obvious choice. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/69 "2018-01-19T17:54:30Z")
Several weeks ago, there was a discussion of who would get the blame in a shutdown. **HurricaneDitka** , my esteemed frequent jousting partner, basically argued that the shoe is on the other foot, and Dems as the minority party would be seen as obstructionist. I said not so fast, the public may have permanently branded Republicans as the guys who can’t seem to manage the government. In a poll today, 48% percent would blame Republicans, 28% would blame Democrats, and 19% blame both equally. This is further evidence to support the theory that Republicans are viewed as running on a campaign of “government doesn’t work!” only to win office and make sure that is so. > **[1194a1GovtShutdown.pdf](https://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1194a1GovtShutdown.pdf)** > > 206.46 KB ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/70 "2018-01-19T17:56:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That would seem to be the best bet for minimizing blame for the government shutdown. If the Freedom Caucus hadn’t come around to vote for the CR in the House, would the shutdown still have been the doing of Democrats, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/71 "2018-01-19T17:57:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The filibuster is the weapon. How can you not understand this? Having a majority is the real weapon. The Republicans have failed to use it. They don’t even have \*50 \*votes. How can \*you \*not understand _that_? The people blocking the Republicans are the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/72 "2018-01-19T17:57:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In a poll today, 48% percent would blame Republicans, 28% would blame Democrats, and 19% blame both equally. This is further evidence to support the theory that Republicans are viewed as running on a campaign of “government doesn’t work!” only to win office and make sure that is so. > > [http://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1194a1GovtShutdown.pdf](http://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1194a1GovtShutdown.pdf) Yeah, if you keep claiming government is the problem, it’s hard to have any credibility when you say “But we’re totally trying to keep it running so that it can injure you more!” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/73 "2018-01-19T18:07:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If the Freedom Caucus hadn’t come around to vote for the CR in the House, would the shutdown still have been the doing of Democrats, in your opinion? No, and I don’t think I’d call it strictly the Democrats fault if the bill fails the cloture vote and it’s a combination of 40+ Dems and a handful of Republicans (just mostly). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/74 "2018-01-19T18:09:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, and I don’t think I’d call it strictly the Democrats fault if the bill fails the cloture vote and it’s a combination of 40+ Dems and a handful of Republicans (just mostly). I think that’s fair. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/75 "2018-01-19T18:10:11Z")
My favorite bit of disingenuousness is the ‘threatening national security by shutting down the military’ line that Paul Ryan is spearheading. He knows just as well as any of his colleagues and about 2/3 of the country that the military is an essential service that will continue regardless of a shutdown. Gotta hand it to the Republicans, though, they’re pulling every lie out of their bag of tricks that they can to pin it on Dems. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/76 "2018-01-19T18:11:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Eh, he’s one of those joining the Dems in threatening to shut down the federal government over DACA, isn’t he? > > And for a libertarian, that seems like a win either way: ‘You mean I can either shut down the federal government or get looser immigration rules? Hell yes I’m on board!’ You are correct that he is a ‘No’ on the pending CR vote, but not for DACA reasons. However, he’s hardly an ‘open borders libertarian’. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/77 "2018-01-19T18:12:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Having a majority is the real weapon. The Republicans have failed to use it. > > They don’t even have \*50 \*votes. How can \*you \*not understand _that_? The people blocking the Republicans are the Republicans. I’ll view that argument more credibly if the Dems follow BobLibDem’s advice and forego filibustering the bill. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/78 "2018-01-19T18:20:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > My favorite bit of disingenuousness is the ‘threatening national security by shutting down the military’ line that Paul Ryan is spearheading. He knows just as well as any of his colleagues and about 2/3 of the country that the military is an essential service that will continue regardless of a shutdown. > > Gotta hand it to the Republicans, though, they’re pulling every lie out of their bag of tricks that they can to pin it on Dems. This is a nice article laying out the pros and cons of the shutdown conversation for Dems: [Government shutdown 2018: The Democratic strategy debate, explained - Vox](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/19/16905762/government-shutdown-democrats) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/79 "2018-01-19T18:25:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The Republicans don’t even have 50 votes. I say vote for cloture and then allow the vote. McCain isn’t there, Paul will not vote for it, among others. Let Schumer call the bluff, allow a vote and watch it go down. First, the Grahams of the world are getting cover because the Democrats are saying they won’t vote for it. If the Democrats vote for cloture, the Grahams will vote for the CR, along with Dems like Manchin. Second, the Democrats need to show that they are serious about DREAMers. Third, all the things I listed upthread about what the Dems would be giving up if this passed. And it would. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/80 "2018-01-19T18:27:12Z")
So, the Republicans are saying, regarding immigration: "There’s this thing that you want–DACA–that we also want. There’s this thing we want–a border wall and a bunch of other border stuff–that you don’t want. So let’s compromise! You get stuff you want and stuff you don’t want, and we get stuff we want and more stuff we want!" Is that accurate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=5)