# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/81 "2018-01-19T18:28:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ll view that argument more credibly if the Dems follow BobLibDem’s advice and forego filibustering the bill. Let me shorten it for clarity: \*The Republican “leadership” does not have 50 votes. \*There is no way for that to be anybody else’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/82 "2018-01-19T18:30:19Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > This is a nice article laying out the pros and cons of the shutdown conversation for Dems: [Government shutdown 2018: The Democratic strategy debate, explained - Vox](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/19/16905762/government-shutdown-democrats) Interesting article. There are some problems with the ‘con’ argument, though. First, a CR actually has to get to the Oval Office for Trump to sign it. And he’s shown he’s not good at leading anyone, including Congressional Pubs. Also, there’s nothing short of this kind of tactic that is going to convince Pubs to give up their DACA bargaining chip. “Bill of love” my ass. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/83 "2018-01-19T18:31:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So, the Republicans are saying, regarding immigration: > > "There’s this thing that you want–DACA–that we also want. There’s this thing we want–a border wall and a bunch of other border stuff–that you don’t want. > > So let’s compromise! You get stuff you want and stuff you don’t want, and we get stuff we want and more stuff we want!" > > Is that accurate? Yep. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/84 "2018-01-19T18:43:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So, the Republicans are saying, regarding immigration: > > "There’s this thing that you want–DACA–that we also want. There’s a slight difference: The Republicans want to erase Obama’s name from it and replace it with Trump’s. That’s the only reason it’s even an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/85 "2018-01-19T18:46:19Z")
What is the basis for this continual assertion that the Republicans are in favor of DACA? I’m not specifically denying that this is the case (I don’t know, though I’m skeptical). But having seen this gambit in play before (e.g. the bogus claim that the ACA was essentially a Republican bill), I think this really needs a valid source. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/86 "2018-01-19T18:50:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What is the basis for this continual assertion that the Republicans are in favor of DACA? [Oh, polls, maybe](http://thehill.com/latino/351901-poll-two-thirds-of-republicans-back-citizenship-for-daca-recipients). > [@](#): > > the bogus claim that the ACA was essentially a Republican bill [Why do want to deny it?](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/nov/15/ellen-qualls/aca-gop-health-care-plan-1993/)At this point, the GOP should want to take pride in the ownership they now have. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/87 "2018-01-19T18:59:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Oh, polls, maybe](http://thehill.com/latino/351901-poll-two-thirds-of-republicans-back-citizenship-for-daca-recipients). You’re apparently cherry-picking certain aspects of DACA, best as I can tell. That’s not the same as saying the Republicans back DACA as a whole, as currently constituted. > [@](#): > > [Why do want to deny it?](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/nov/15/ellen-qualls/aca-gop-health-care-plan-1993/) Here too, your cite contradicts you. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/88 "2018-01-19T19:01:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s a slight difference: The Republicans want to erase Obama’s name from it and replace it with Trump’s. That’s the only reason it’s even an issue. Nope. The name had very little to do with it. A lot of conservatives objected because they felt like it was an overreach of executive power. Congress (is supposed to) write the laws, not the president. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/89 "2018-01-19T19:03:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Let me shorten it for clarity: \*The Republican “leadership” does not have 50 votes. \*There is no way for that to be anybody else’s fault. I disagree. If Schumer and the Dems, along with a handful of Republicans, filibuster the bill then it’s the fault of those people. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/90 "2018-01-19T19:04:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Nope. The name had very little to do with it. A lot of conservatives objected because they felt like it was an overreach of executive power. Congress (is supposed to) write the laws, not the president. Lucky we don’t have Obama writing a lot of executive orders anymore. A Republican would never do that! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/91 "2018-01-19T19:04:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What is the basis for this continual assertion that the Republicans are in favor of DACA? I’m specifically talking about Senate Republicans here, and I could easily be wrong: someone else said it, and I took it at face value. I’d appreciate a cite either way. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/92 "2018-01-19T19:05:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I disagree. If Schumer and the Dems, **along with a handful of Republicans** , filibuster the bill then it’s the fault of those people. Dude. It can’t pass _with or without_ the filibuster. Whose fault is that? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/93 "2018-01-19T19:06:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re apparently cherry-picking certain aspects of DACA, best as I can tell. So whaddaya got? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/94 "2018-01-19T19:06:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Lucky we don’t have Obama writing a lot of executive orders anymore. A Republican would never do that! Just curious, what is the Trump executive order that you think was the biggest overreach? The one that most clearly goes beyond powers granted to him into “tyrant” territory? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/95 "2018-01-19T19:08:45Z")
On what basis do \*you \*consider Obama’s DACA order, a policy with which your party actually agrees, to have been tyrannical overreach? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/96 "2018-01-19T19:10:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Dude. It can’t pass _with or without_ the filibuster. Whose fault is that? I’m not certain it won’t pass without the filibuster. There was a group of House Republicans who threatened to vote against it, but some accommodation was reached and they ended up voting for it, and it passed the House. I’m not convinced something like that is impossible in the Senate either. That’s why I’m reserving my blame mostly for whoever casts the vote that kills the process. If it’s the cloture vote, then those that voted against cloture get the blame. If Schumer and pals are confident it can’t pass anyways, why would they not vote to allow cloture and let it get onto the final vote? If it’s at the final vote, then I’ll blame those who vote against it on that vote. If it passes the Senate and goes to Trump’s desk and he vetoes it, then I’ll blame Trump. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/97 "2018-01-19T19:13:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > On what basis do \*you \*consider Obama’s DACA order, a policy with which your party actually agrees, to have been tyrannical overreach? Here, [this article](https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/daca-unconstitutional-obama-admitted) gives a more eloquent overview than I can. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/98 "2018-01-19T19:16:02Z")
Wow, it’s a good thing there has never been such a thing as an executive order before or since Obama, isn’t it? That’s what the partisan-hack outfit you’re citing is claiming. How about telling us in your own words? Or just say why the Republicans refused to pass a thing they purportedly support; that’ll do instead. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not certain it won’t pass without the filibuster. When this hypothetical situation that you think will give you cover for blaming somebody other than your own party occurs, you can take advantage of it. Tragically, the rest of us are forced to deal with mere reality. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/99 "2018-01-19T19:18:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … How about telling us in your own words? … I already did that. See post #88. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/100 "2018-01-19T19:19:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just curious, what is the Trump executive order that you think was the biggest overreach? The one that most clearly goes beyond powers granted to him into “tyrant” territory? Gotta go with the Muslim ban in all its various attempts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=6)