# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/121 "2018-01-19T20:51:58Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > When you say “Unlinked to compromise” are you talking about being unlinked to anything else in immigration or are you talking about it being unlinked to anything else outside of immigration? Because sure, I agree that the DREAMers alone probably wouldn’t pass. The bipartisan agreement I was talking about dealt with some other immigration issues. That’s what I’m talking about as passable. If DREAMers alone wouldn’t pass, but if Republicans are willing to accept some things they don’t want (kids growing up in the country not to be sent to a country they have no memory of) in order to get what they want (a boondoggle of a wall), then sure, they’re compromising after all, and the problem with them is something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/122 "2018-01-19T20:53:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … I’m not sure whether Republicans would be likely to vote on DACA if it weren’t linked to other things they want: what I’d like to see is what they’ve said about Dreamers unlinked to compromise. > **[DREAM Act | Legislative history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act#Legislative_history)** > > The original version of the DREAM Act was introduced on April 25, 2001, by Representative Luis Gutiérrez, Democrat from Illinois, as the "Immigrant Children's Educational Advancement and Dropout Prevention Act of 2001" (H.R. 1582) during the 107th Congress. This bill received 34 cosponsors, and would have allowed undocumented immigrant students to first apply to be protected from deportation and then apply for and receive lawful permanent residency if they met the criteria. > One month later, on M... > [@](#): > > On October 18, 2007, Durbin, along with Republican co-sponsors Charles Hagel of Nebraska and Richard Lugar of Indiana, introduced the DREAM Act as S. 2205. Though nearly identical to the revised amendment to the Defense Bill, opponents continued to cite previous arguments. **To bring the DREAM Act up for debate, a vote was scheduled on October 24 that would require a filibuster-proof count of 60 yes votes, but that failed.** [25] Senate opponents cited a variety of reasons for their opposition. Some labeled the DREAM Act as amnesty that would encourage chain migration and further illegal immigration in anticipation of new versions of the DREAM Act. Others stated that the DREAM Act, though worthy legislation, should be enacted only as part of a comprehensive immigration reform. > [@](#): > > The 111th Congress continued to consider the DREAM Act bill throughout 2010. S. 3827, a new version of the DREAM Act, includes numerous changes to address concerns raised about the bill. The DREAM Act, along with a repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”, was incorporated into the National Defense Authorization Act for the Fiscal Year 2011. On September 21, 2010, **the Senate filibuster of the bill was maintained in a 56–43 vote** ; it would have taken 60 votes to stop the filibuster and continue the progress of the bill.[29] The following day, Durbin introduced the bill once again along with Richard Lugar. Only two senators co-sponsored the bill and it was defeated again.[30] > > Less than a month later, on November 16, President Barack Obama and top Democrats pledged to introduce the Dream Act into the House by November 29.[31] The House of Representatives passed the DREAM Act on December 8, 2010,[32][33] **but the bill failed to reach the 60-vote threshold necessary to end debate on the Senate floor (55-41**—Motion to invoke cloture on the motion to concur in the House amendment to the Senate amendment No. 3 to H.R. 5281).[34] > [@](#): > > On May 11, 2011, then Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid reintroduced the DREAM Act in the Senate. Some Republicans who had supported the bill in the past, including Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, Jon Kyl of Arizona, John McCain of Arizona, and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, withheld their votes, objecting that such a bill should not be granted without increasing immigration enforcement. Reid indicated that he would consider adding a workplace enforcement measure in the DREAM Act that would require every employer to use E-Verify, the government’s Internet-based work eligibility verification system.[35] President Obama supported the bill as one of his efforts to reform the US immigration system.[36] My sense is that the DREAM Act has never had broad support among Republicans on its own and that enshrining DACA in law would be compromise on the part of the Republicans. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/123 "2018-01-19T20:54:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My sense is that the DREAM Act has never had broad support among Republicans on its own and that enshrining DACA in law would be compromise on the part of the Republicans. YMMV. Did you read the poll posted earlier? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/124 "2018-01-19T20:55:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What you are describing as “one part of a system fails” is what I see as democracy in action. “Our number one goal is to make Obama a one-term President” is democracy in action? Reflexive opposition is democracy in action? Tantrums and government shutdowns instead of paying the bills are democracy in action? Wow. Well, that’s from a guy who thinks McVeigh’s mass murder was a “reasonable response” to democratic government actually operating. So, you know, consider the source. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/125 "2018-01-19T20:56:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If DREAMers alone wouldn’t pass, but if Republicans are willing to accept some things they don’t want (kids growing up in the country not to be sent to a country they have no memory of) in order to get what they want (a boondoggle of a wall), then sure, they’re compromising after all, and the problem with them is something else entirely. Right. They had worked out a compromise that (from what I was hearing) had bipartisan support and the WH had originally said Trump would sign any bipartisan bill that protected the DREAMers. Then they went to meet with Trump, he surrounded himself with people like Tom Cotton, and he blew it up. Now McConnell doesn’t want to move forward on such a bill because Trump isn’t reliable. Democrats didn’t cause this. Most of the rank-and-file Republicans didn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/126 "2018-01-19T20:57:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Did you read the poll posted earlier? Yes, I saw your poll, sorry. I meant Senate Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/127 "2018-01-19T20:59:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Our number one goal is to make Obama a one-term President” is democracy in action? Reflexive opposition is democracy in action? Tantrums and government shutdowns instead of paying the bills are democracy in action? > > Wow. > > Well, that’s from a guy who thinks McVeigh’s mass murder was a “reasonable response” to democratic government actually operating. So, you know, consider the source. Every time you put quotes around something, it should be viewed with suspicion. I didn’t say use the phrase “reasonable response”. If you can’t quote me correctly, please stop trying to. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/128 "2018-01-19T20:59:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [DREAM Act - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act#Legislative_history) > > > [@Wikipedia](#): > > > > Senate opponents cited a variety of reasons for their opposition. Some labeled the DREAM Act as amnesty that would encourage chain migration and further illegal immigration in anticipation of new versions of the DREAM Act. Others stated that the DREAM Act, though worthy legislation, should be enacted only as part of a comprehensive immigration reform. > > My sense is that the DREAM Act has never had broad support among Republicans on its own and that enshrining DACA in law would be compromise on the part of the Republicans. YMMV. Note the bit about “though worthy legislation.” This is where I think it’s some bullshit. If there’s something that a supermajority wants, in general I believe that should be unlinked from things that are controversial. They should not be part of negotiations. Do the things that nearly everyone wants, and save the negotiations for the controversial things. (And yes, that’s a big piece of why I have mixed feelings about this shutdown, given that a supermajority wants the government to be funded.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/129 "2018-01-19T20:59:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You should pay more attention. I didn’t use the word “tyrant” to describe Obama. It was in obvious comparison, in a discussion about Obama’s executive orders: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just curious, what is the Trump executive order that you think was the biggest overreach? The one that most clearly goes beyond powers granted to him into “tyrant” territory? I think you remember writing that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/130 "2018-01-19T21:03:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I didn’t say use the phrase “reasonable response”. Is that \*really \*an unfair presentation of your views? There’s been quite a bit of discussion in the Pit over them, and nothing you’ve said here shades them in a different light. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/131 "2018-01-19T21:04:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You should pay more attention. I didn’t use the word “tyrant” to describe Obama. :dubious: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > On what basis do \*you \*consider Obama’s DACA order, a policy with which your party actually agrees, to have been tyrannical overreach? > > Here, [this article](https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/daca-unconstitutional-obama-admitted) gives a more eloquent overview than I can. Sure looks to me like you’re agreeing with ElvisLives’s stipulated description of Obama engaging in “tyrannical overreach.” If you didn’t intend that, or if you see some daylight between “tyrannical overreach” and “tyrant”, it’d be helpful to see why. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/132 "2018-01-19T21:05:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is that \*really \*an unfair presentation of your views? I think you have a consistent habit of unfair presentation of your opponents views. This is the third time you’ve done it to me in the last two hours, just in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/133 "2018-01-19T21:07:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Note the bit about “though worthy legislation.” This is where I think it’s some bullshit. If there’s something that a supermajority wants, in general I believe that should be unlinked from things that are controversial. They should not be part of negotiations. Do the things that nearly everyone wants, and save the negotiations for the controversial things. > > (And yes, that’s a big piece of why I have mixed feelings about this shutdown, given that a supermajority wants the government to be funded.) I hear what you’re saying, but the rank-and-file Republicans and the Democrats already came up with a plan and then Trump torpedoed it. If Trump is going to torpedo the exact thing that he claimed he wanted (a DACA fix), then it’s a sane strategy to shut down the government in order to force him to walk that back. There’s a reason Graham is saying he’d vote against the CR. His opposition is an attempt to force a vote on these issues rather than continuing to punt because CRs do not increase defense spending. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/134 "2018-01-19T21:11:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > :dubious: > Sure looks to me like you’re agreeing with ElvisLives’s stipulated description of Obama engaging in “tyrannical overreach.” If you didn’t intend that, or if you see some daylight between “tyrannical overreach” and “tyrant”, it’d be helpful to see why. The phrase I used was “an overreach of executive power”. I agree with that description. Elvislives, as is his habit, chose to contort that into “tyrannical overreach” and then ultimately “tyrant”. I did not use that word to describe Obama’s DACA EO and I don’t agree with it. He is wrong. Is that clear enough? It would be exhausting to try to correct every single misstatement of my views that happens on the SDMB (being a conservative here is quite exhausting). I wish the default assumption were something other than if someone says “HD said \_\_\_\_” and HD ignored it or didn’t see it or chose not to respond to it that it must mean “HD agrees with \_\_\_\_”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/135 "2018-01-19T21:12:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > :dubious: > Sure looks to me like you’re agreeing with ElvisLives’s stipulated description of Obama engaging in “tyrannical overreach.” If you didn’t intend that, or if you see some daylight between “tyrannical overreach” and “tyrant”, it’d be helpful to see why. This is such a ridiculous cheap shot. **ElvisL1ves** uses the word, and **HD** doesn’t quarrel with it, so by the transitive property of bullshit, suddenly **HD** is quietly endorsing the word itself? Does this work in all situations? Like Trump made a bunch of racist comments about shithole countries and not wanting black people to immigrate as much as white people. So far as been reported, Lindsey Graham chided the President, not Durbin. By this same transitive property of bullshit, would you accuse Durbin of quietly endorsing Trump’s words? Of course not. Then you can treat **HD** with this same minimal level of respect, too. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/136 "2018-01-19T21:13:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well I don’t have one, and it’s a rather complex matter. My impression is that - much as is the case with the Republican voters - many Republican Senators support various elements of DACA and would be willing to make some sort of deal. But my impression is that there is very little support for DACA as a whole - which is what the Democrats appear to be insisting on - on the Republican side. Except, of course, for the American public; you know, those people that the government is theoretically supposed to serve and seldom does…87% of whom support DACA. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/137 "2018-01-19T21:14:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think you have a consistent habit of unfair presentation of your opponents views. This is the third time you’ve done it to me in the last two hours, just in this thread. There are two tools in his argument toolbox: strawman and saying opponents are “handwaving.” Don’t let it bother you. He does this to liberals like myself, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/138 "2018-01-19T21:14:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The phrase I used was “an overreach of executive power”. I agree with that description. > > Elvislives, as is his habit, chose to contort that into “tyrannical overreach” and then ultimately “tyrant”. I did not use that word to describe Obama’s DACA EO and I don’t agree with it. He is wrong. Is that clear enough? > > It would be exhausting to try to correct every single misstatement of my views that happens on the SDMB (being a conservative here is quite exhausting). I wish the default assumption were something other than if someone says “HD said \_\_\_\_” and HD ignored it or didn’t see it or chose not to respond to it that it must mean “HD agrees with \_\_\_\_”. Fair enough; I completely accept both your answer and your explanation and your irritation, even though that’s three things and “both” only allows two. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/139 "2018-01-19T21:16:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This is such a ridiculous cheap shot. **ElvisL1ves** uses the word, and **HD** doesn’t quarrel with it, so by the transitive property of bullshit, suddenly **HD** is quietly endorsing the word itself? If I said “Tell me how much of an asshole your boss is” and you said “Here’s a link that explains!” am I supposed to wonder if you think your boss is an asshole? To be clear, I don’t engage with Elvis, but I don’t think LHoD was engaging in a cheap shot. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/140 "2018-01-19T21:17:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There are two tools in his argument toolbox: strawman and saying opponents are “handwaving.” Don’t let it bother you. He does this to liberals like myself, as well. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fair enough; I completely accept both your answer and your explanation and your irritation, even though that’s three things and “both” only allows two. Thank you both. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=8)