# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968>\
**Category:** Politics & Elections\
**Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 8

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**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/141 "2018-01-19T21:17:39Z")

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> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> Fair enough; I completely accept both your answer and your explanation and your irritation, even though that’s three things and “both” only allows two.

I once had a dispute with my wife over whether “a couple” can be used for more than two things. I later mentioned this to a client, and he said “it’s like when you say you’re going to have a couple of beers …”

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/142 "2018-01-19T21:23:21Z")

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> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I think you have a consistent habit of unfair presentation of your opponents views. This is the third time you’ve done it to me in the last two hours, just in this thread.

Methinks the lad doth protest too much. For nearly two years I’ve read your posts (well, with 5 or 6 months off in between). I’ve seen you stir the pot while saying you weren’t posting to stir the pot, and I’ve seen you parrot just about every conservative meme. I think Elvis is dead-on balls-accurate in analyzing your posts.

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**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/143 "2018-01-19T21:23:27Z")

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> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> I once had a dispute with my wife over whether “a couple” can be used for more than two things. I later mentioned this to a client, and he said “it’s like when you say you’re going to have a couple of beers …”

So did you open your marriage or not?

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**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/144 "2018-01-19T21:24:32Z")

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> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#):
>
> In one model of democracy, a single party (or coalition) controls the legislative body, and gets to bear full blame if they pass extremely unpopular laws, such as a DACA repeal. Our model does not work like that. In our system, Republicans can ‘control’ both houses of congress and the executive, and still not be able to pass a budget because of the Senate’s filibuster. This blurs the lines of accountability. This is why you see immigration activists (who are on the side of angels here) targeting Democrats, insisting that they use the only lever they have to secure DACA funding. It’s why Republicans can even attempt to craft an argument that a shutdown would be the fault of Democrats.
> 
> But because accountability is blurred, neither side is 100% to blame for a potential shutdown. Ditka’s logic about blaming whoever votes against cloture is so obviously self-serving as to not really deserve response, but so are the claims that ‘Republicans own all three branches - they can’t possibly blame Democrats!’ The truth is that in this system there is no objective, algorithmic way to assign blame. So the American people do what they would do anyway: they use their values, combined with their imperfect knowledge of events, to mete out blame. And right now, the Republican party looks like the one that is refusing to be reasonable: they won’t offer clean votes on popular programs, like DACA and CHIP, and they seem unwilling to budge at all. Their president blew up a plan after saying he would sign what Congress agreed to. Unless their noise machine can sufficiently blur the facts of the case, they’re going to take the blame here.

In this case, the leader of the party in power has endorsed the shutdown of the government. One side is 100% to blame when the blame refers to the thing they actually want to happen happening.

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**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/145 "2018-01-19T21:25:24Z")

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> [@Johnny\_Ace](#):
>
> Methinks the lad doth protest too much. For nearly two years I’ve read your posts (well, with 5 or 6 months off in between). I’ve seen you stir the pot while saying you weren’t posting to stir the pot, and I’ve seen you parrot just about every conservative meme. I think Elvis is dead-on balls-accurate in analyzing your posts.

_shrug_ you and he are both entitled to your own opinions. I’m confident that most Dopers can read up through this page and reach their own conclusions on the matter.

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**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/146 "2018-01-19T21:30:35Z")

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> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> So did you open your marriage or not?

Took me a bit to get that. Not bad. 🙂

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/147 "2018-01-19T21:33:01Z")

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> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> So did you open your marriage or not?

Ha!

Oh dear. Maybe this is why my husband gets so irritated when I say “couple” and mean 2-5.

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**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/148 "2018-01-19T21:34:21Z")

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> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> Fair enough; I completely accept both your answer and your explanation and your irritation, even though that’s three things and “both” only allows two.

And for my comments that were directed your way, I retract them.

This is turning into a real love-fest.

I don’t like it.

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/149 "2018-01-19T21:35:53Z")

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> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> And for my comments that were directed your way, I retract them.
> 
> This is turning into a real love-fest.
> 
> I don’t like it.

No worries, I’ll take care of that. 😃

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/150 "2018-01-19T21:36:55Z")

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> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> _shrug_ you and he are both entitled to your own opinions. I’m confident that most Dopers can read up through this page and reach their own conclusions on the matter.

So am I. And I think you’ll be disappointed by their conclusions overall.

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**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/151 "2018-01-19T21:47:49Z")

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To back away from the kumbaya vibe that makes conservatives’ like me skin crawl, [here is a short (\<2 minutes) video](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/01/19/omb_director_mick_mulvaney_obama_weaponized_government_shutdown_in_2013_will_look_very_different_this_time.html) of Mulvaney blaming Schumer and taking shots at Obama for “weaponizing” the shutdown in 2013.

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**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/152 "2018-01-19T21:49:13Z")

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I’m on my phone so I will return to this thread later to address some posts above, but I’m going to ask folks to dial back their rhetoric. I’m reserving the ability to respond to specific items later today.

[/moderating]

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/153 "2018-01-19T22:03:37Z")

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> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> To back away from the kumbaya vibe that makes conservatives’ like me skin crawl, [here is a short (\<2 minutes) video](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/01/19/omb_director_mick_mulvaney_obama_weaponized_government_shutdown_in_2013_will_look_very_different_this_time.html) of Mulvaney blaming Schumer and taking shots at Obama for “weaponizing” the shutdown in 2013.

This is the Mick Mulvaney that asked for a budget of $0 (that’s right, no funding) for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, right? The one that Karl Frisch, executive director of Allied Progress, a consumer group backed in part by the New Venture Fund, a public charity focused on conservation, education and other issues, said:

> [@Karl Frisch](#):
>
> There can be no clearer signal of Mick Mulvaney’s intent to defang and dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau than his request of zero dollars in funding and his decision to instead drain the Bureau’s reserve.

THAT Mick Mulvaney? Of course, I can see no reason that I’d distrust anything he might say. :rolleyes:

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/154 "2018-01-19T22:03:50Z")

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It sounds like the talks between Trump and Schumer didn’t come up with anything earth-shattering. I would guess (and this is just a guess) that lots of people in the GOP caucus were holding their breaths at the thought of those two meeting without any Republican Congressional leadership present.

I don’t have a crystal ball at all. No predictions from me on this mess. I know that we have a hill briefing to prepare for on Tuesday that will be delayed in case of a shutdown and we’re not at all ready, so that makes a shutdown less likely. 😃

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**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/155 "2018-01-19T22:09:32Z")

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> [@Johnny\_Ace](#):
>
> This is the Mick Mulvaney that asked for a budget of $0 (that’s right, no funding) for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, right? The one that Karl Frisch, executive director of Allied Progress, a consumer group backed in part by the New Venture Fund, a public charity focused on conservation, education and other issues, said:
> 
> THAT Mick Mulvaney? Of course, I can see no reason that I’d distrust anything he might say. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I think I made it pretty clear in my original post that he obviously has some partisan leanings that factor into his statement.

And yes, I’m pretty clear on the fact that the GOP doesn’t think much of the CFPB.

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**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/156 "2018-01-19T22:11:00Z")

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> [@wonky](#):
>
> It sounds like the talks between Trump and Schumer didn’t come up with anything earth-shattering. I would guess (and this is just a guess) that lots of people in the GOP caucus were holding their breaths at the thought of those two meeting without any Republican Congressional leadership present. …

Yeah, that’s a scary thought for me.

> [@wonky](#):
>
> … I know that we have a hill briefing to prepare for on Tuesday that will be delayed in case of a shutdown and we’re not at all ready, so that makes a shutdown less likely. 😃

What do you do / for whom do you do it? (If you don’t feel like sharing, I understand)

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/157 "2018-01-19T22:14:44Z")

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> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Yeah, that’s a scary thought for me.

I wish we could have had a video of their reaction when Schumer said “We made progress but there is no deal.” Of course, Democrats would have been doing movie “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!”

Good times.

> [@](#):
>
> What do you do / for whom do you do it? (If you don’t feel like sharing, I understand)

I work in health policy for a nonprofit. My focus is Medicare policy.

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/158 "2018-01-19T22:15:16Z")

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> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Yeah, I think I made it pretty clear in my original post that he obviously has some partisan leanings that factor into his statement.

Actually, you didn’t. Let me requote you to make sure it’s clear to everyone exactly what you said:

> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> To back away from the kumbaya vibe that makes conservatives’ like me skin crawl, [here is a short (\<2 minutes) video](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/01/19/omb_director_mick_mulvaney_obama_weaponized_government_shutdown_in_2013_will_look_very_different_this_time.html) of Mulvaney blaming Schumer and taking shots at Obama for “weaponizing” the shutdown in 2013.

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**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/159 "2018-01-19T22:19:13Z")

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> [@wonky](#):
>
> It sounds like the talks between Trump and Schumer didn’t come up with anything earth-shattering.

Here is Schumer speaking to Stephen Colbert on how Trump negotiates:

[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/xk2ObY2xWfs/hqdefault.jpg "Sen. Chuck Schumer Has 'No Doubts' Trump Said 'Sh\*thole'") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk2ObY2xWfs&t=257)

Earlier in the video Schumer notes that a bi-partisan group (3 dems, 3 reps) came up with a DACA bill to give to the president. Both sides compromised and gave a bit. Schumer claims it would pass both chambers if allowed to come to a vote and it is Trump standing in its way.

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**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\
**Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/160 "2018-01-19T22:29:50Z")

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I may be wrong, but I don’t see how Democrats really have the leverage here. For one thing, I think they’re using the wrong wedge issue. I support the Dreamers but by itself, it’s not a winner for Democrats. They really should have made this more about CHIP and healthcare more broadly with DACA as a related issue - maybe they tried and I’m not aware of it, but that’s not how it seems to be reading in the press.

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