# Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968 "2018-01-19T14:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/161 "2018-01-19T22:34:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Actually, you didn’t. Let me requote you to make sure it’s clear to everyone exactly what you said: I thought “blaming” and “taking shots at” made it clear. I happen to largely agree with Mulvaney’s accusation of how Obama handled the 2013 shutdown, and if a cloture vote on the bill fails, I’ll think those that voted against cloture, who would probably be mostly Senate Dems, deserve the blame, or at least much of the blame. You probably disagree with all of the above, but it’s not like I was trying to slide a fast one past you while you weren’t looking. It wasn’t some click-baitey description of the link or anything like that. I was clear and upfront about the contents. If your thought was along the lines of “ugh, Mulvaney, that guy never says anything worthwhile” you were well-informed enough by my description to know that you probably didn’t want to click on the link. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/162 "2018-01-19T22:37:43Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I may be wrong, but I don’t see how Democrats really have the leverage here. For one thing, I think they’re using the wrong wedge issue. I support the Dreamers but by itself, it’s not a winner for Democrats. They really should have made this more about CHIP and healthcare more broadly with DACA as a related issue - maybe they tried and I’m not aware of it, but that’s not how it seems to be reading in the press. No no no, don’t be a pessimist. I’m _sure_ shutting down the government over DACA is going to work out swell for them. ETA: Did you see the poll Ravenman cited earlier? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/163 "2018-01-19T22:42:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I thought “blaming” and “taking shots at” made it clear. I happen to largely agree with Mulvaney’s accusation of how Obama handled the 2013 shutdown, and if a cloture vote on the bill fails, I’ll think those that voted against cloture, who would probably be mostly Senate Dems, deserve the blame, or at least much of the blame, and you probably disagree with all of the above, but it’s not like I was trying to slide a fast one past you while you weren’t looking. It wasn’t some click-batey description of the link or anything like that. I was clear and upfront about the contents. If your thought was along the lines of “ugh, Mulvaney, that guy never says anything worthwhile” you were well-informed enough by my description to know that you probably didn’t want to click on the link. And I made it far clearer than mild implications (at best). I was well-informed long before your description, which is why I felt the need to make sure it was clear to those who might not have been so well-informed and been misled. Rest assured that I will continue to do so if I feel it is necessary. No, I didn’t click on that link. I trust absolutely nothing that any member of the Trump administration and its mouthpieces say, nor do I see the need to waste my time on watching them say what I knew they were going to say, anyway. (That has been an overwhelming regularity when I actually have watched them, btw.) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/164 "2018-01-19T22:54:32Z")
There’s been a subtle shift. First, it was, _“Holding the budget/debt-ceiling hostage is never acceptable for anything.”_ Now, it’s _“Holding the budget/debt-ceiling hostage is OK if it’s for a good cause.”_ ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/165 "2018-01-19T22:59:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There’s been a subtle shift. > > First, it was, _“Holding the budget/debt-ceiling hostage is never acceptable for anything.”_ > > Now, it’s _“Holding the budget/debt-ceiling hostage is OK if it’s for a good cause.”_ Yup. Politics makes hypocrites of us all. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/166 "2018-01-19T23:32:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Well, that’s from a guy who thinks McVeigh’s mass murder was a “reasonable response” to democratic government actually operating. So, you know, consider the source. This is both a personal attack and harassment, both of which are prohibited. Do not do this again or warnings will follow. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is that \*really \*an unfair presentation of your views? There’s been quite a bit of discussion in the Pit over them, and nothing you’ve said here shades them in a different light. What happens in the Pit, should stay in the Pit. If you want to pit someone, that is allowed. Referencing Pit activity as a shot at another poster is not. > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Methinks the lad doth protest too much. For nearly two years I’ve read your posts (well, with 5 or 6 months off in between). I’ve seen you stir the pot while saying you weren’t posting to stir the pot, and I’ve seen you parrot just about every conservative meme. I think Elvis is dead-on balls-accurate in analyzing your posts. Do not appear to accuse others of trolling. [/moderating] * * * > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So did you open your marriage or not? Now this - this is funny. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/167 "2018-01-20T00:12:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No no no, don’t be a pessimist. I’m _sure_ shutting down the government over DACA is going to work out swell for them. > > ETA: Did you see the poll Ravenman cited earlier? Another poll here. The key points: - 56% say it is more important to avoid a shutdown, and 34% say it is more important to continue DACA. - BUT… if there is a shutdown, 21% would blame Trump, 26% would blame congressional Republicans, and 31% would blame Dems. - When asked how the government should deal with people already living in the US illegally, only 14% say deport them all. Just over 8 in ten say some should be allowed to become legal residents. (This surprises me, I thought the hardcore anti-immigrant number would be significantly more.) - Support for a wall is eroding, down to 35%, from a high of 52% in September 2015. > **[rel1a-trump2c.shutdown2c.immigration.pdf](https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2018/images/01/19/rel1a-trump2c.shutdown2c.immigration.pdf)** > > 303.54 KB Back on the hardcore 14% of anti-immigrant Americans, I can’t help but think that at least half of the House Republican caucus has adopted a position held by just one in eight Americans. Sure seems like Republicans are decent at winning elections, but boy, they can be really out of touch with Americans. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/168 "2018-01-20T00:39:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > BUT… if there is a shutdown, 21% would blame Trump, 26% would blame congressional Republicans, and 31% would blame Dems. I suspect if you asked “Who is to blame for …” You’d get 31% saying the Democrats (or Obama) before you finished the question. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/169 "2018-01-20T00:51:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There’s been a subtle shift. > > First, it was, _“Holding the budget/debt-ceiling hostage is never acceptable for anything.”_ > … When? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/170 "2018-01-20T01:39:48Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I may be wrong, but I don’t see how Democrats really have the leverage here. For one thing, I think they’re using the wrong wedge issue. I support the Dreamers but by itself, it’s not a winner for Democrats. They really should have made this more about CHIP and healthcare more broadly with DACA as a related issue - maybe they tried and I’m not aware of it, but that’s not how it seems to be reading in the press. I’m not sure how that would work. They are being offered 6 years of CHIP in order to come to the table. How are they going to use CHIP? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/171 "2018-01-20T04:19:17Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Last I checked, the DACA version had majority Senate support, while McConnell’s doesn’t. How are the Democrats the one holding everything hostage? Perhaps the viewpoint is that Republicans are sentient beings who are qualified to have differing opinions, while Democrats are a lower life-form whose only function is to do what Trump tells them or be whipped. But unless this is the view **Saint Cad** espouses, then I don’t think OP is entirely ingenuous. I’d even go so far as to say that Republican Senators, and perhaps even their SDMB supporters, are not entirely non-hypocritical. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Our number one goal is to make Obama a one-term President” is democracy in action? Reflexive opposition is democracy in action? Tantrums and government shutdowns instead of paying the bills are democracy in action? > > Wow. > > Well, that’s from a guy who thinks McVeigh’s mass murder was a “reasonable response” to democratic government actually operating. So, you know, consider the source. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Every time you put quotes around something, it should be viewed with suspicion. I didn’t say use the phrase “reasonable response”. If you can’t quote me correctly, please stop trying to. For those following at home without a scorecard, my understanding is that **Mr. Ditka** ’s opinion of **Mr. McVeigh** ’s murder of 168 people is that it was [**“not an entirely unreasonable reaction.”**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20716465&postcount=165) (There’s already another thread if you need to debate whether this mass murder was _more or less not unreasonable_ than the Antifa terrorist who threw a stone toward a Nazi.) I’m not competent to parse the semantic difference between “reasonable” and “not unreasonable” — I’m still confused whether "entitled means _entitled_ or its opposite. (I do wonder if this advanced morphological form can be used to help conform with Board rules, e.g. “XXXX’s values appear to be not entirely humane.”) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/172 "2018-01-20T04:54:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’d even go so far as to say that Republican Senators, and perhaps even their SDMB supporters, are not entirely non-hypocritical. Understatement of the century so far. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/173 "2018-01-20T05:01:27Z")
Cloture vote failed. [This is how the NYT wrote it up](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/us/politics/government-shutdown.html): > [@](#): > > Senate Democrats on Friday night blocked passage of a monthlong stopgap spending bill, leaving less than two hours to find a path forward before much of the government was set to shut down. > > The roll call, which is still technically open, was 50 in favor and 48 against. Sixty votes are needed to end debate and move to a final vote. Five Democrats voted to end debate, while four Republicans voted with most of the Democrats to block the bill. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/174 "2018-01-20T05:08:05Z")
Can someone answer me this, I haven’t heard anyone talk about it, but both of the bargaining chips for the republicans (CHIP and DACA) were recently allowed to expire by congress and/or by executive order. So, why does anyone think this wasn’t planned to use these as a bargaining chip in future negotiations so the democrats will fight to get back to status quo but the republicans stand to actually gain something? I mean, Trump could just reverse his executive order on DACA, right? This really doesn’t depend on congress. It’s just so disingenuous of Republicans and so naïve of the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/175 "2018-01-20T05:20:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Cloture vote failed. [This is how the NYT wrote it up](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/us/politics/government-shutdown.html): > > > [@](#): > > > > Senate Democrats on Friday night blocked passage of a monthlong stopgap spending bill, leaving less than two hours to find a path forward before much of the government was set to shut down. > > > > The roll call, which is still technically open, was 50 in favor and 48 against. Sixty votes are needed to end debate and move to a final vote. Five Democrats voted to end debate, while four Republicans voted with most of the Democrats to block the bill. It’s now official, 50 to 49. Guess who the 49th “No” was? The same lying turtle that’s speaking right now. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/176 "2018-01-20T05:22:03Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > It’s now official, 50 to 49. Guess who the 49th “No” was? The same lying turtle that’s speaking right now. The majority leader often votes no in these circumstances, as only a senator who was on the prevailing side of a vote can ask for a re-vote. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/177 "2018-01-20T05:23:30Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The majority leader often votes no in these circumstances, as only a senator who was on the prevailing side of a vote can ask for a re-vote. Yup, back in the day Harry Reid cast some interesting “no” votes for this very reason. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/178 "2018-01-20T05:26:36Z")
Mitch the Turtle is conducting dangerous experiments in neutron density bullshit and galactic hypocrisy. The very macramé of space-time is threatened… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/179 "2018-01-20T05:28:23Z")
> [@nate](#): > > Can someone answer me this, I haven’t heard anyone talk about it, but both of the bargaining chips for the republicans (CHIP and DACA) were recently allowed to expire by congress and/or by executive order. CHIP needs to be funded, and Trump would eat his own left nut before he reversed anything, let alone (perish the thought!) DACA. > [@](#): > > So, why does anyone think this wasn’t planned to use these as a bargaining chip in future negotiations so the democrats will fight to get back to status quo but the republicans stand to actually gain something? Because they’re either habitually uninformed or Republicans. > [@](#): > > I mean, Trump could just reverse his executive order on DACA, right? This really doesn’t depend on congress. It’s just so disingenuous of Republicans and so naïve of the Democrats. How naive? They’ve voted for punts twice now in good faith and, like Lucy, the Republicans have removed the DACA ball. You know the old saying about the definition of insanity. But I’ll agree with you about Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968/180 "2018-01-20T06:00:16Z")
Top trending on Twitter? #TrumpShutdown Number three? #GOPShutdown NOT trending? #DemShutdown, #DemocratShutdown, or any other form that implies Democrats are at fault. Guess we know who the public blames. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-defend-your-senators-holding-the-budget-bill-hostage/806968.md?page=10)