# Dems Need to Accept Moderates on Abortion= capture the House **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819 "2012-05-13T23:52:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/181 "2012-05-19T19:09:32Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Anti-choice calling themselves pro-life is just their propaganda term, as if they really live pro-life, like Jainist monks, never swatting a fly for all of the sacred life it holds. We have the right to call ourselves pro-choice, in this comparison. Pro-human life obviously, or must you be so overliteral? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/182 "2012-05-19T19:30:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s unfortunate, because most people in the US think restrictions like waiting periods are a good thing. Because most people in the U.S. aren’t willing or able to think on this issue any further than their particular political/religious leader’s talking points. When it’s their life on the line, they recognize that waiting periods, especially, are particularly cruel, particularly pointless and do absolutely nothing but increase the cost, the problems and the potential for complications involved. Supporting waiting periods says that you are a short-sighted, self-serving, cruel joke of an individual. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/183 "2012-05-19T19:31:55Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Because most people in the U.S. aren’t willing or able to think on this issue any further than their particular political/religious leader’s talking points. When it’s their life on the line, they recognize that waiting periods, especially are particularly cruel, particularly pointless and no absolutely nothing but increase the cost, the problems and the potential for complications involved. > > Supporting waiting periods says that you are a short-sighted, self-serving, cruel joke of an individual. Despite it being mandated in several supposedly more “progressive” countries like Germany. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/184 "2012-05-19T19:43:01Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Because most people in the U.S. aren’t willing or able to think on this issue any further than their particular political/religious leader’s talking points. When it’s their life on the line, they recognize that waiting periods, especially, are particularly cruel, particularly pointless and do absolutely nothing but increase the cost, the problems and the potential for complications involved. > > Supporting waiting periods says that you are a short-sighted, self-serving, cruel joke of an individual. For the record: I oppose waiting periods, and am completely comfortable with abortion on demand up to the point of viability of the fetus. I would hope that no doctor would perform an abortion on a viable fetus unless the woman’s life or health were threatened. Having said that, I think you’re wrong. If you look at the Gallop poll, a 24 hour waiting period is supported by 70% of women and 60% of Democrats. Seventy percent of women! I don’t think you can explain that by people mindlessly following some political or religious leader. But the real kicker is that fewer than 25% of Americans think abortion should be legal in the 2nd trimester. Almost 3/4 of all Americans think it should be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/185 "2012-05-19T20:00:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you uncomfortable with people making it difficult to obtain a gun? That is, background checks, waiting periods, etc? That right is explicitly in the constitution, not found in the penumbra. Except the gun show loophole is a loophole big enough to drive a train through. No need to wait, no need for a background check if you are of a mind to avoid that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/186 "2012-05-19T20:03:15Z")
Maybe NARAL should start sponsoring abortion shows. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/187 "2012-05-19T20:16:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe NARAL should start sponsoring abortion shows. Yep…unregulated back alley abortions is the solution! :rolleyes: Point is your claimed waiting period and background check for buying a gun can be legally sidestepped. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/188 "2012-05-19T20:26:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yep…unregulated back alley abortions is the solution! :rolleyes: It was a joke. But if NARAL did this (not going to happen, but let’s say it would for kicks), I would expect they would only have licensed doctors perform the procedure. > [@](#): > > Point is your claimed waiting period and background check for buying a gun can be legally sidestepped. Doesn’t really matter, since we’re talking about positions people take on the subject. If you’re for waiting periods/background checks for guns, then maybe you shouldn’t look down on people who are for similar waiting periods for abortions. Both are rights protected by the constitution, but no right is without restrictions. The SCOTUS is the arbiter of whether said restriction is “unreasonable” or, to use their language, an “undue burden”, and they have spoken on the matter of waiting periods for abortion in _Casey_. I don’t know what they’ve said about the gun issue. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/189 "2012-05-19T20:35:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … no right is without restrictions. The SCOTUS is the arbiter of whether said restriction is “unreasonable” or, to use their language, an “undue burden”, and they have spoken on the matter of waiting periods for abortion in _Casey_. _Casey_ upheld a 24 hour waiting period. I showed earlier Utah now has a 72-hour waiting period. Kinda curious where it is felt the waiting period becomes burdensome. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/190 "2012-05-19T20:38:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > _Casey_ upheld a 24 hour waiting period. I showed earlier Utah now has a 72-hour waiting period. > > Kinda curious where it is felt the waiting period becomes burdensome. I suspect a 9 month waiting period might be struck down. (That was a joke, too.) I don’t really know what SCOTUS will say. My gut tells me anything more than a week would be too much (the clock is ticking, after all). Three days? That might squeak through, but I wouldn’t bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/191 "2012-05-19T20:46:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Pro-human life obviously, or must you be so overliteral? :dubious: Literal on the term pro-life, by comparison to Damuri’s reference to anti-choice being only anti to the choice of abortion, and calling themselves pro-life. Pro choice is well earned, for example the many reproductive choices offered at our health center; pro-life, (or your “pro-human life”) is a misleading propaganda term for a group that is not concerned with anyone’s life, but their manufactured at risk group. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/192 "2012-05-19T21:32:57Z")
I used to work as an escort for a women’s clinic. The thing is, if a woman was undecided about whether or not she wanted to have an abortion or continue the pregnancy, she would be informed of all the options, even if she had an appointment for an abortion at that time. She wasn’t pushed into one option or another. If she wanted to keep the pregnancy, she was given a list of resources. However, if she went to an anti-choice organization, she would only be given resources if she agreed to keep the pregnancy. She wasn’t informed of all the options. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/193 "2012-05-19T21:50:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > For the record: I oppose waiting periods, and am completely comfortable with abortion on demand up to the point of viability of the fetus. I would hope that no doctor would perform an abortion on a viable fetus unless the woman’s life or health were threatened. “Viability” is a moral distinction, it’s a technological one. That’s just creeping anti-abortionism, since as medical technology advances eventually “viability” will be pushed back to conception or even before; as soon as the sperm and eggs are able to reach each other,that will be “viability”. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Having said that, I think you’re wrong. If you look at the Gallop poll, a 24 hour waiting period is supported by 70% of women and 60% of Democrats. Seventy percent of women! I don’t think you can explain that by people mindlessly following some political or religious leader. Of course you can. The overwhelming majority of Americans are Christian, and Christianity is a deeply misogynistic religion. And on top of that, America is a very politically narrow and right wing country. It’s easy to find huge support for cruel or stupid things here, especially if they have a religious base; 65% of Americans support teaching creationism in schools, for example. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > _Casey_ upheld a 24 hour waiting period. I showed earlier Utah now has a 72-hour waiting period. > > Kinda curious where it is felt the waiting period becomes burdensome. Probably when it starts inconveniencing rich women. But since they can easily just get it done out of the country, that would be “never”. It’s _poor_ women who are severely hampered or prevented from getting a legal abortion because of waiting periods; there’s a significant tinge of class warfare in such laws. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/194 "2012-05-20T00:40:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Viability” is a moral distinction, it’s a technological one. That’s just creeping anti-abortionism, since as medical technology advances eventually “viability” will be pushed back to conception or even before; as soon as the sperm and eggs are able to reach each other,that will be “viability”. I assume you meant “isn’t” as the 2nd word. I agree. And as viability is pushed back, so should our policy on abortion. I don’t want to live in a society that kills a human being that could be saved. The woman does’t have to raise the baby, but no reason to kill a viable human being. > [@](#): > > Of course you can. The overwhelming majority of Americans are Christian, and Christianity is a deeply misogynistic religion. And on top of that, America is a very politically narrow and right wing country. It’s easy to find huge support for cruel or stupid things here, especially if they have a religious base; 65% of Americans support teaching creationism in schools, for example. Eh. Move somewhere else if it bothers you that much. This thread is about the “moderate” view of abortion. I, myself, am not a moderate on that subject but, unlike you, I’m able to put my own perspective aside and evaluate what Americans actually think. If 70% of Americans believe “x”, then “x” is the moderate view in the US. You and I don’t have to agree with it for it to be the moderate view. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/195 "2012-05-20T01:06:31Z")
The viability criterion means you can take the baby out and see if current medical technology can save it. There’s no reason for a bright line. It’s kida an inherent line. You have the right to evict the fetus because its your body, but not the right to kill it if it would survive. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/196 "2012-05-20T02:13:21Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I think the Catholic Church at least acknowledges that emergency contraceptives are [not abortive](http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/morning-after_pill_not_abortion_scientists_say.htm). Really? That’s news to me. And your site suggests otherwise: > [@](#): > > Earlier this month the Catholic Conference of Illinois joined the fray, telling state regulators that pharmacists should not be required to choose between their conscience and their livelihood. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah; it’s called “beg a judge and hope he isn’t ‘pro-life’”. I recall a case in IIRC Georgia where the judge did force a girl to beg her molester for an abortion, and he murdered her. But hey; there wasn’t any abortion and there’s one less slut, so it was win-win from a ‘pro-life’ position. I’d really, REALLY like to see a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/197 "2012-05-20T03:03:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Probably when it starts inconveniencing rich women. But since they can easily just get it done out of the country, that would be “never”. It’s _poor_ women who are severely hampered or prevented from getting a legal abortion because of waiting periods; there’s a significant tinge of class warfare in such laws. Well, perhaps more simply a rich woman is in a better position to take vacation days from her employer or is she is a professional and can set her own schedule or she’s independently wealthy or has a husband whose income can support her, while a poor woman working a McJob cannot, so a three-day waiting period (i.e. taking time off work twice in one week for two appointments) is a minor nuisance for the former and a getting-fired problem for the latter. Either way, waiting periods are condescending and dickish. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/198 "2012-05-20T03:51:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I assume you meant “isn’t” as the 2nd word. I agree. And as viability is pushed back, so should our policy on abortion. I don’t want to live in a society that kills a human being that could be saved. The woman does’t have to raise the baby, but no reason to kill a viable human being. No, you want to live in a society that medically humiliates women and produces unwanted children as a side effect. And I doubt you’ll want to pay for the no-doubt expensive process, much less raising the resulting child to adulthood. Plus, if we really took your logic seriously then once human cloning in perfected, every time someone scratched themselves, we should save the resulting detritus and grow all the discarded cells into a few trillion more people. After all, every cell in that bit of tissue will be just as viable as that ovum you are declaring a “human being”. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. Move somewhere else if it bothers you that much. Standard American love-it-or-leave it nonsense. Americans love to talk about how free and diverse they are, but in reality most can’t stand anything but rabid conformity. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > This thread is about the “moderate” view of abortion. I, myself, am not a moderate on that subject but, unlike you, I’m able to put my own perspective aside and evaluate what Americans actually think. If 70% of Americans believe “x”, then “x” is the moderate view in the US. You and I don’t have to agree with it for it to be the moderate view. That’s ridiculous. By that logic if most Americans supported slavery or exterminating everyone outside of the US border, those would be “moderate” views. You are just trying to define away extremism, cruelty and tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/199 "2012-05-20T04:51:49Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Anti-choice calling themselves pro-life is just their propaganda term, as if they really live pro-life, like Jainist monks, never swatting a fly for all of the sacred life it holds. We have the right to call ourselves pro-choice, in this comparison. And calling them anti-choice is just YOUR propaganda. > [@](#): > > We have the right to call ourselves pro choice, and our health care center was an example of that, yet we were constantly being picketed and harassed by anti-choice individuals, and our clinic was damaged, windows broken, and staff threatened. I never said that pro-choice was not an accurate descriptor of the pro-choice side, I think it is an accurate descriptor. I Explicitly said that pro-life was not an accurate descriptor of the anti-abortion side. I think calling them anti-choice is hysterics and makes me take you less seriously. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yep…unregulated back alley abortions is the solution! :rolleyes: > > Point is your claimed waiting period and background check for buying a gun can be legally sidestepped. So how can I sidestep waiting periods and background checks in NYC? > [@florez](#): > > Literal on the term pro-life, by comparison to Damuri’s reference to anti-choice being only anti to the choice of abortion, and calling themselves pro-life. Pro choice is well earned, for example the many reproductive choices offered at our health center; pro-life, (or your “pro-human life”) is a misleading propaganda term for a group that is not concerned with anyone’s life, but their manufactured at risk group. You seem to think that My criticism of the term anti-choice is an attack on the term pro-choice. Why would you make that sort of kneejerk assumption? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, you want to live in a society that medically humiliates women and produces unwanted children as a side effect. And I doubt you’ll want to pay for the no-doubt expensive process, much less raising the resulting child to adulthood. Plus, if we really took your logic seriously then once human cloning in perfected, every time someone scratched themselves, we should save the resulting detritus and grow all the discarded cells into a few trillion more people. After all, every cell in that bit of tissue will be just as viable as that ovum you are declaring a “human being”. You seem to be injecting the most right wing viewpoints into anyone that disagrees with yo. > [@](#): > > That’s ridiculous. By that logic if most Americans supported slavery or exterminating everyone outside of the US border, those would be “moderate” views. You are just trying to define away extremism, cruelty and tyranny. Some anti-abortion folks might feel they have more in common with abolitionists than you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/200 "2012-05-20T05:00:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And calling them anti-choice is just YOUR propaganda. No; it’s an accurate way of describing their position. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Some anti-abortion folks might feel they have more in common with abolitionists than you. But they are factually wrong. They are closest to the slavers, not the abolitionists; they wish to reduce half the human race to the status of domestic animals, of property. _Their_ property. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819.md?page=11)