# Dems Need to Accept Moderates on Abortion= capture the House **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819 "2012-05-13T23:52:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/61 "2012-05-15T05:13:40Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > Oh, I agree with the latter point, but **Der Trihs’s** main thesis doesn’t follow from that. The purpose of such efforts, no doubt, is to burden and discourage abortions. But it doesn’t follow that the purpose of burdening and discouraging abortions is to oppress women. Rather, the obvious purpose is to protect fetuses. Except for the fact that they show a complete disdain for the welfare of the fetus and for the baby they force to be born. And they don’t care if the fetus is dead; they still want to force the woman to give birth to it. And again, they work to harm women in general, not just by opposing abortion. > [@Mosier](#): > > In either case, I’m sure we both agree that at the very least, newborns are entitled to legal protection from optional procedures that would end their healthy life. Now, is it such a stretch for you to imagine that some people would be motivated by something other than pure sadism to extend that same protection to a healthy fetus? Yes, because it doesn’t fit the facts. You are in the position of someone trying to argue that the Ku Klux Klan means well. > [@Mosier](#): > > In my opinion, a viable, healthy fetus probably shouldn’t be aborted. Until the point of viability, I philosophically believe that the fetus is more a part of the mother’s body than an individual unto itself, and the mother shouldn’t be prevented from electing to have an abortion. Again, it’s not an issue I care enough about to change my voting habits. What’s annoying to me is that you consistently argue that there’s absolutely nothing reasonable about my opinion, and that I’m an evil person for having it. In which case, you are _not_ part of the “pro-life” movement in the first place because you are not trying to coerce and terrorize women. If you think that women should be allowed to choose, then _by definition_ you are part of the pro-choice side. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/62 "2012-05-15T05:18:40Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Der Trihs, what qualities make a late-term fetus a “mindless piece of tissue” which don’t also apply to a newborn? I’m not answering for Der, but… IIRC, Carl Sagan observed that fetuses only acquire brain waves during the 3rd trimester. That seems like a reasonable dividing line to me. It’s not clear that brain waves imply thought. But it’s unlikely that thought occurs _without_ brain waves. So there’s a safety margin. Now for myself, my take is that human babies are born prematurely anyway, to the extent that most mammals are way more competent a week after they are born than human babies are. So using brain waves is adding a safety margin to a safety margin. And first trimester abortions are morally irrelevant. That said, my opinion is in the minority: most Americans accept a degree of moral complexity with regards to first trimester abortions. I don’t, except with regards to the feelings of the mother. For that reason, I used contraception rigorously and without exception when I dated. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/63 "2012-05-15T05:25:12Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m not answering for Der, but… > > IIRC, Carl Sagan observed that fetuses only acquire brain waves during the 3rd trimester. That seems like a reasonable dividing line to me. It’s not clear that brain waves imply thought. But it’s unlikely that thought occurs _without_ brain waves. So there’s a safety margin. > > Now for myself, my take is that human babies are born prematurely anyway, to the extent that most mammals are way more competent a week after they are born than human babies are. So using brain waves is adding a safety margin to a safety margin. And first trimester abortions are morally irrelevant. That said, my opinion is in the minority: most Americans accept a degree of moral complexity with regards to first trimester abortions. I don’t, except with regards to the feelings of the mother. For that reason, I used contraception rigorously and without exception when I dated. I don’t disagree with any of that. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/64 "2012-05-15T05:27:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And they don’t care if the fetus is dead; they still want to force the woman to give birth to it. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/65 "2012-05-15T05:40:14Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Cite? More wanting cites that the sky is blue, huh? Well, a quick google got me [an article](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03/12/442637/georgia-rep-compares-women-to-animals/?mobile=nc) mentioning it. > [@](#): > > State Rep. Terry England was speaking in favor of HB 954, which makes it illegal to obtain an abortion after 20 weeks even if the woman is known to be carrying a stillborn fetus or the baby is otherwise not expected to live to term. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/66 "2012-05-15T06:02:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Maple syrup on everything! I don’t expect any American will notice, since they already put high-fructose corn syrup on everything. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/67 "2012-05-15T06:08:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > More wanting cites that the sky is blue, huh? Well, a quick google got me [an article](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03/12/442637/georgia-rep-compares-women-to-animals/?mobile=nc) mentioning it. Your cite has been found wanting. HB 954 was [amended](http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-government/georgia-lawmakers-pass-abortion-1401963.html) by Georgia Republicans to allow exceptions, such as when delivering poses a health risk to the mother, or the baby is not likely to live. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/68 "2012-05-15T06:35:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t expect any American will notice, since they already put high-fructose corn syrup on everything. We have a lot more cornfields than we have maple . . . groves? Forests? ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/69 "2012-05-15T07:53:11Z")
I was under the impression that Anti choice was riding along with the religious right, and that they got behind Republicans for the most part. RCC and the fetus worshipping dogma they spew can never be moderate, so why should a party aligned with reproductive choice give up on the war, when the battles are still ongoing? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/70 "2012-05-15T07:53:49Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Your cite has been found wanting. HB 954 was [amended](http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-government/georgia-lawmakers-pass-abortion-1401963.html) by Georgia Republicans to allow exceptions, such as when delivering poses a health risk to the mother, or the baby is not likely to live. Irrelevant; you asked if they wanted to force women to birth dead babies, and they proposed a bill that would have done so. Changing it later doesn’t make the original version have never existed. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/71 "2012-05-15T09:10:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Irrelevant; you asked if they wanted to force women to birth dead babies, and they proposed a bill that would have done so. Changing it later doesn’t make the original version have never existed. Or the more reasonable version; abortion opponents made a bill with some stupid oversights, and later fixed it. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/72 "2012-05-15T11:38:17Z")
> [@independentDemocrat](#): > > It is time for the Democratic Party to adopt moderate candidates on abortion back into the Party. I have seen many sincere Democrats get thrown out of the Party through financial woes or primary challengers specifically, over this issue. It is time to bring the Catholic vote back to its Kennedy roots. Its time to bring all Latino and especially, Mexican voters back into the Party. And its time to pass an actual health care bill that assists the poor since, many moderates abandoned the issue over abortion… causing everyone in the nation to lose comprehensive care and thus, life. Also, abortion does not even fit into the historical narrative of the Democratic Party. The Party that has always championed the rights of minorities and the poor needs to also, champion the rights of the unborn. Without the Democrats there would be no Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, a minimum wage, child labor laws, or a living wage. In fact, abortion was approved by Republican Nixon & upheld by Ford & Reagan… Please look into Nixon’s reasons for why he supported abortion (on his secret White House tapes) & you will learn the gruesome truth of the matter. A matter that the Democrats must turn from and continue to seek to help the poor through education, a decent wage, and economic rights… as most abortions occur for economic reasons… > Even President Jimmy Carter came out recently and said that the issue was hurting the Party in the South specifically… The best way to stop Abortions and still let a Woman choose, is to provide a good effective Birth Control, and let the husband and wife decide when( or if) they want children, Also vote on other issues, the extremists are trying to push their beliefs on others. not taking into consideration that children who are not wanted suffer. If the parents can not care for physically, mentally,financially should be able to decide what the size of their family should be. We do have separation of Church and State and Abortion is a religious issue.One need just look to Haiti and see what happens when there are more mouths to feed than a parent can handle. Responsible parenthood should be taught to all who are old enough to procreate.Abstinence alone doesn’t work for many, and if they are immature, they need to know what happens to a child they must be responsible for. If parents are over burdend it doesn’t make for a good marriage either. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/73 "2012-05-15T11:52:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In reality, though, the radical “pro-abortion” Extreme 1 end of your spectrum hardly even exists. Is there **any** significant political pressure **anywhere** in this country for completely unregulated discretionary abortion right up until the moment of birth? I don’t know of any individual or group that supports that position. > > However, there **is** considerable real-life political pressure for the radical “anti-abortion” Extreme 2 position and positions very close to it, so ISTM that your definition of “moderate”, in the sense of a middle ground between two extremes, is way skewed. > > The “pro-abortion” side of the spectrum pretty much stops at the “moderate” position you’ve outlined, AFAICT. I don’t know anyone who is pro-abortion. They are prolife of all the already born, not just unborn. I believe once the child can be known as a child, seen as a child then it is protected by the law. If proper birth control is available, then there would be far less need for an abortion and a lot less poverty and child abuse. The term Pro-Life as used is not a correct term. It should be pro- birth, once the child is born there is little care about it. The so called Pro-Lifers don’t want there to be taxes to raise the child to adult hood, or give child care to the one’s the mother can’t support, educate,feed, clothe or love.It is easy to sit back and complain or march against the woman, but thinking a few diapers or a little baby food can help one’s consience just isn’t enough. There are 18 years the person needs help. The money spent on advertising,marching and picketing places could be used to help the already born,then perhaps they are really Pro-Life! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/74 "2012-05-15T12:04:06Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Or the more reasonable version; abortion opponents made a bill with some stupid oversights, and later fixed it. In other words as I expected there was no point in responding to your request for a cite, since you are going to interpret anything and everything as the anti-choicers being “well meaning and misunderstood”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/75 "2012-05-15T13:11:05Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > Oh, I agree with the latter point, but **Der Trihs’s** main thesis doesn’t follow from that. The purpose of such efforts, no doubt, is to burden and discourage abortions. But it doesn’t follow that the purpose of burdening and discouraging abortions is to oppress women. Rather, the obvious purpose is to protect fetuses. And, if we look at the anti-abortion (pro-life) sites, that’s what we see. A quick Google search turns up, for example, the [National Right To Life Committee](http://www.nrlc.org/). the [Pro-Life Action League](http://prolifeaction.org/) and [ProLife.com](http://www.prolife.com/); see also [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_legalization_of_abortion). An honest debate sticks to the topic. Villifying the anti-abortion camp (now apparently [a majority in the U.S.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx), btw) is simply a way of trying to win the debate on the cheap. Yes, but it’s kind of AMAZING the way discouraging abortion keeps involving burdening and oppressing women. Maybe it is not vilification. Maybe it is simple observation. You know: walks like a duck, quacks like a duck … ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/76 "2012-05-15T13:51:51Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Or the more reasonable version; abortion opponents made a bill with some stupid oversights, and later fixed it. And yet strangely they don’t learn from these examples so we can expect more bills with stupid oversights in future. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/77 "2012-05-15T16:19:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** , is hydrocephaly a threat to the mother? IANADoctor. My understanding is that the condition can be anywhere from treatable with a good prognosis to profound brain damage to the fetus and a danger to the mother. Hopefully a doctor can give better detail. I think more interesting is a fetus with [Anencephaly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly) (no brain). The baby _may_ be born alive (many are stillborn) but rarely live more than a day or two and are never conscious (they have no higher functioning brain). Near as I can tell bringing such a baby to term is not a particular danger to the mother but making her carry it to term seems cruel in the extreme. Should a mother be allowed to terminate late term (her choice) in such a case? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/78 "2012-05-15T17:55:41Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > And it makes me very uncomfortable to have my very personal reproductive decisions decided for in the name of someone else’s religion or morality. There’s nothing particularly reasonable about the pro-life movement in America. It is largely about demonizing the often difficult choices woman make and very little else. It is certainly _not_ about providing the resources to actually help women birth and care for babies and children. > > As a woman who went through two very difficult pregnancies and had to face some other extremely difficult reproductive choices, I am sick and fucking tired of having to care what the heck someone else who is not me thinks about my uterus. > > If that offends you or turns you off well it greatly offends me that the Reps are unable to tell the difference between me and a fertilized egg. You are welcome to have your beliefs. You are most certainly not welcome to tell me or my daughters that we must abide by them. If you continue to believe you have that right you will be treated as someone I deservedly view as a direct threat to the well being of my family. Are you under the impression that morality is not legislated, or that it shouldn’t be? I wonder if you can consistently maintain that position? Just shouting “its my body, I’ll do whatever the fuck I want” is a good way to get people to dismiss you just as easily as you might dismiss someone that just keeps yelling “murderer!” outside of abortion clinics. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/79 "2012-05-15T18:06:09Z")
Beyond the prominent pro-life Democrats that have been mentioned in this thread, it’s been 15 years since the Clintons started saying abortion should be “safe, legal, and rare.” If that’s not a moderate position, I don’t know what is. It has nothing to do with how they will fare in the House elections and it goes without saying that they held the House from 2006-10 (and they’d controlled it for long stretches before that) without moving further to the right on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819/80 "2012-05-15T19:09:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words as I expected there was no point in responding to your request for a cite, since you are going to interpret anything and everything as the anti-choicers being “well meaning and misunderstood”. Why did you put well meaning and misunderstood in quotation marks, when I never said any such thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-need-to-accept-moderates-on-abortion-capture-the-house/621819.md?page=5)