# Dems pick up deep-red legislative seat in Missouri **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 7, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347 "2018-02-07T03:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/61 "2018-02-07T18:52:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > !,"? God damn, I love punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/62 "2018-02-07T18:54:31Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The way he described Chicago was to make it sound like this horrible nightmare for gun rights supporters and gun owners, and it ain’t that. Not even close. **Talking about what the Democratic politicians would like to have happen if they had their druthers** does not change the current status of Chicago which is 180 degrees from how it was described. (my bold) The whole line of discussion was about what Democratic politicians would like to have happen if they had their druthers. And what they want, is to ban guns. We know this because, wait for it - they banned guns when they could. Yes, you can get a CCW permit in Chicago today. That fact is not in dispute. It’s also not responsive to the point Pantastic was making, which is Democratic politicians in certain areas really want to ban guns. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/63 "2018-02-07T19:01:12Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > (my bold) > > The whole line of discussion was about what Democratic politicians would like to have happen if they had their druthers. And what they want, is to ban guns. We know this because, wait for it - they banned guns when they could. > > Yes, you can get a CCW permit in Chicago today. That fact is not in dispute. It’s also not responsive to the point Pantastic was making, which is Democratic politicians in certain areas really want to ban guns. No, the point was to use the word Chicago as a trigger word, if you’ll pardon the pun, and it worked. Regardless of the fact that his description of Chicago is about 180 degrees from accurate. It had the desired effect, which is why gun rights advocates throw the word Chicago around so much. It gets reactions and nodding agreement from those already viewing Chicago as the nightmare for gun owners that some people want it to be, even though it is a completely false narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/64 "2018-02-07T19:13:24Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So if Chicago is your worst case scenario location for gun rights, and just about anyone that wants a gun and carry it can do so there right now. What the hell are you gun rights supporters so scared of? > > The example you use of what would happen to all of America if Democrats were in charge is that just about anyone will be able to get a gun and carry it with them? Sounds like you guys won already, so why the histrionics about Chicago? What is this fear and why is it so overblown considering that there is no ban whatsoever in your boogeyman City? I don’t think Chicago is the worst case scenario right now. Chicago falls under the 7th circuit which is more friendly than the 2nd or 9th, or 4th for that matter. But Chicago is a good example to use when looking at the landscape of gun rights holistically. Looking at just the legislative angle, Chicago was a pretty bad place for gun rights. But taken together with the courts, that was addressed and continues to be addressed. So when I talk about Chicago, I use it as an example to stress the importance of federal appointments to the bench as a line of defense against bad state and local laws. Chicago is a success story for the courts, and why the judicial appointments are so important, maybe the most important part of the executive. So really, I’m grateful that Chicago and its people pushed their bans so hard that SCOTUS incorporated the 2nd amendment nation wide. I’m glad that Madigan miscalculated and lost such that the people of Chicago now have shall issue CCW. And the attorney fees are nice to fund other litigation. But I look to places like New Jersey, and California, and those places are much worse off in terms of gun rights. They are not buttressed by the courts and those localities don’t have much hope in the near term. A few more judicial appointments, maybe 1 or 2 more SCOTUS turnovers, and the story could be different. The Democratic politicians there, unchecked by the courts, have created an environment that is unfriendly to gun rights. The only difference in Chicago is the courts are different. There is no question that absent the courts, Chicago would be just as bad for gun rights as it had been for the past many decades. That’s the point. If Democratic politicians wanted to be seen as less anti-gun - they’d push for less anti-gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/65 "2018-02-07T19:14:25Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > No, the point was to use the word Chicago as a trigger word, if you’ll pardon the pun, and it worked. Regardless of the fact that his description of Chicago is about 180 degrees from accurate. It had the desired effect, which is why gun rights advocates throw the word Chicago around so much. It gets reactions and nodding agreement from those already viewing Chicago as the nightmare for gun owners that some people want it to be, even though it is a completely false narrative. I decided to re-write **Pantastic** ’s post, using Bone’s interpretation of what he intended to say: One can look to Democratic-dominated areas like IL (especially Chicago) to see what ‘common sense regulation’ looks like, and it is consistently ‘anyone who wants a gun can get one, and anyone who wants a CCW can get one’. Sure the platform doesn’t explicitly say ‘we want anyone who wants a gun to have one, and anyone who wants a CCW to get one’, but the practice does - and costs them significant votes. Seems like the meaning has changed, but \*\*Bone \*\*is a moderator, and he says it’s the same, so I’ll take his word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/66 "2018-02-07T19:21:44Z")
I’ve never felt as afraid of anything in my life as gun right supporters are about getting their guns taken, and nobodies guns are being taken or are even in any danger of being taken. We had 11 school shootings from Jan 1st to Jan 23rd this year and there is not one peep about any regulations coming about as a result. I guess I just do not understand this fear. It doesn’t seem rational to me. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/67 "2018-02-07T19:35:12Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > … nobodies guns are being taken or are even in any danger of being taken. … That’s not precisely true in an absolute sense, but by and large the threat of serious gun control inhibiting the people’s RKBA further has been staved off for now. > [@Airbeck](#): > > We had 11 school shootings from Jan 1st to Jan 23rd this year and there is not one peep about any regulations coming about as a result. Maybe that’s because [that statistic is basically gun-control fiction](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/so-about-those-11-shootings-in-the-first-25-days-of-january-2018/article/2647083)? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/68 "2018-02-07T19:40:37Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Ok you ignored me the first time but you are badly misinformed about Chicago IL. I live there and I can get a gun and a concealed carry license with very little trouble. What kind of ban are you talking about? Every one of my friends that wants a gun and/or a concealed carry either already has one or is getting one. Have you ever been to Chicago? You should stop saying false things about a place you clearly have no direct experience with. They had a complete ban on ordinary citizens carrying firearms until the Federal courts ruled that they were required to allow carry in 2013, and Chicago continues to try to implement laws that make concealed carry only technically legal like the overturned ‘no carry within 1000 feet of parks’ law. They still don’t even have gun stores or gun ranges inside of the city (at least as of late 2017). That is, in fact, as close to a complete ban as they can get away with - it’s just like Texas has as close to a complete ban on abortion as they can get away with. Texas had a ban, then were told they couldn’t, and over the decades coming up with laws that are practically a ban (like requiring abortion clinics to adhere to overly restrictive requirements) that eventually get overturned. [http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-04-06/news/ct-otis-mcdonald-obituary-met-20140406\_1\_gun-ban-illinois-state-rifle-association-gun-rights](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-04-06/news/ct-otis-mcdonald-obituary-met-20140406_1_gun-ban-illinois-state-rifle-association-gun-rights) > [@Airbeck](#): > > He was wrong about his description of Chicago as “as close to a ban as we can get away with”. No amount of explanation will change that. There is nothing at all like a ban in Chicago. I was not at all wrong - Chicago has as close to a ban on ordinary citizens owning and using guns as it can get away with, just like Texas has as close to a ban on abortion as it can get away with. The fact that the courts have struck down both bans repeatedly just indicates that what they can get away with is not a complete ban, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t pushing for as close to said ban as they can get away with. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/69 "2018-02-07T19:44:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s not precisely true in an absolute sense, but by and large the threat of serious gun control inhibiting the people’s RKBA further has been staved off for now. > > Maybe that’s because [that statistic is basically gun-control fiction](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/so-about-those-11-shootings-in-the-first-25-days-of-january-2018/article/2647083)? Washington Examiner? Really? Couldn’t find a source that isn’t right wing? You don’t think they have a partisan point to make with that “news” article? You want to be the one to tell the families of Bailey Holt and Preston Cope that their deaths don’t matter because some other instances last month involving guns being used at schools weren’t as bad as that one? Was the shooting in Las Vegas also a lie? What about Sandy Hook. The point is, no serious discussion of gun grabbing is happening as a result of any of this. Nor is there going to be any time soon. The GOP thanks you for your votes and donations though, even though this fear is akin to the fear that the monster under the bed is going to get you unless you cover up with your sheets. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/70 "2018-02-07T19:47:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Maybe that’s because [that statistic is basically gun-control fiction](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/so-about-those-11-shootings-in-the-first-25-days-of-january-2018/article/2647083)? Their argument seems to be that two of those shootings shouldn’t count, since one of them was with a pellet gun and one of them was a suicide. OK, fair enough. So it should instead read: NINE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS IN FIRST 25 DAYS OF JANUARY!!! Which, um, still seems like a huge fucking problem. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/71 "2018-02-07T19:48:01Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > They had a complete ban on ordinary citizens carrying firearms until the Federal courts ruled that they were required to allow carry in 2013, and Chicago continues to try to implement laws that make concealed carry only technically legal like the overturned ‘no carry within 1000 feet of parks’ law. They still don’t even have gun stores or gun ranges inside of the city (at least as of late 2017). That is, in fact, as close to a complete ban as they can get away with - it’s just like Texas has as close to a complete ban on abortion as they can get away with. Texas had a ban, then were told they couldn’t, and over the decades coming up with laws that are practically a ban (like requiring abortion clinics to adhere to overly restrictive requirements) that eventually get overturned. > > [http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-04-06/news/ct-otis-mcdonald-obituary-met-20140406\_1\_gun-ban-illinois-state-rifle-association-gun-rights](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-04-06/news/ct-otis-mcdonald-obituary-met-20140406_1_gun-ban-illinois-state-rifle-association-gun-rights) > > I was not at all wrong - Chicago has as close to a ban on ordinary citizens owning and using guns as it can get away with, just like Texas has as close to a ban on abortion as it can get away with. The fact that the courts have struck down both bans repeatedly just indicates that what they can get away with is not a complete ban, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t pushing for as close to said ban as they can get away with. You were wrong and you’ve also clearly never been to Chicago. There is no ban, there isn’t going to be a ban. It’s ok to admit that you were wrong. If you worded things differently you may have found a way to say what you wanted to say without being wrong, but the words you did use were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/72 "2018-02-07T19:48:48Z")
My god, what have I done! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/73 "2018-02-07T19:49:25Z")
Ah, the obsession of gun nuts. A mention of gun control in a thread, and _boom_, it’s in the absorbing Markov state of a gun debate. That, and any suggestion that Israel might should get out of the West Bank. Don’t mention it unless you’re prepared to argue for days. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/74 "2018-02-07T19:50:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > My god, what have I done! “And you may say to yourself…” ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/75 "2018-02-07T19:53:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > [INDENT]One can look to Democratic-dominated areas like IL (especially Chicago) to see what ‘common sense regulation’ looks like, and it is consistently ‘anyone who wants a gun can get one, and anyone who wants a CCW can get one’. While your rephrasing is pretty absurd, what happens if we narrow it down to just Chicago, which is the area that triggered you? Then when we look at common sense regulation in Chicago alone, we get an interesting picture - a person who wants to get a gun can buy one, but only if he leaves the city, as the city prohibits gun stores. And anyone who wants a CCW can get one, but only if he leaves the city, as the city prohibits gun ranges and live fire is required to qualify for a CCW. So really, looking at Chicago one sees that ‘common sense’ regulation appears to mean ‘technically one can buy a gun, but we won’t actually allow any stores to sell them, and technically one can get a CCW, but we won’t actually allow you to perform all of the steps to get one’. That suddenly looks a LOT less open than you were trying to present it as. In fact, that looks an awful lot like how anti-abortion laws work, where you get ‘well, there’s not a TECHNICALLY a ban, but you need to travel way out of the area to do it, sucks to be you if you don’t have time off from work and means for long distance travel’. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/76 "2018-02-07T19:56:44Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You were wrong and you’ve also clearly never been to Chicago. There is no ban, there isn’t going to be a ban. It’s ok to admit that you were wrong. If you worded things differently you may have found a way to say what you wanted to say without being wrong, but the words you did use were wrong. The words I used were perfectly correct, at no point did I claim that there was a ban - ‘As close to a ban as they can get away with’ actually rather clearly indicates that there is not currently a ban. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/77 "2018-02-07T19:58:47Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > what happens if we narrow it down to just Chicago, which is the area that triggered you? It didn’t trigger me, it was just pointed out that you were wrong about Chicago. You’re probably wrong about LA and DC too, it just didn’t come up. > [@](#): > > And anyone who wants a CCW can get one, but only if he leaves the city, as the city prohibits gun ranges and live fire is required to qualify for a CCW. That’s why I can’t get a CCW: My house prohibits gun ranges and live fire is required to qualify for a CCW. I can’t really bear the time and expense of leaving my house to get a CCW, so it’s effectively banned. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/78 "2018-02-07T20:00:38Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Washington Examiner? Really? Couldn’t find a source that isn’t right wing? As the article points out, the usual suspects were too busy being deceptive / disingenuous / inaccurate in their reporting by parroting that statistic to bother to fact check it. > [@Airbeck](#): > > You don’t think they have a partisan point to make with that “news” article? Sure, and I’m confident that the NYT had a “partisan point to make” in citing that “statistic” as well. What’s your point? > [@Airbeck](#): > > You want to be the one to tell the families of Bailey Holt and Preston Cope that their deaths don’t matter because some other instances last month involving guns being used at schools weren’t as bad as that one? That’s not even remotely close to what I’ve said. > [@Airbeck](#): > > Was the shooting in Las Vegas also a lie? What about Sandy Hook. No, and also more things I’ve never said. > [@Airbeck](#): > > The point is, no serious discussion of gun grabbing is happening as a result of any of this. Nor is there going to be any time soon. If you want to have a serious discussion, I’d urge you to try to pursue one without resorting to phoney-baloney statistics. > [@Airbeck](#): > > The GOP thanks you for your votes and donations though, even though this fear is akin to the fear that the monster under the bed is going to get you unless you cover up with your sheets. I’m completely confident that I’ve got a far better grasp of how to prevent the gun-control monster from getting me than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/79 "2018-02-07T20:21:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m completely confident that I’ve got a far better grasp of how to prevent the gun-control monster from getting me than you do. If I recall correctly you live in Utah, correct? What gun monsters are coming for you out there exactly? There is zero chance that you will ever have to part from any of your precious guns. It’s ok to not be afraid. Fear is not something that you have to let get the best of you. Life is way better if you can overcome that. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347/80 "2018-02-07T20:25:23Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > While your rephrasing is pretty absurd, what happens if we narrow it down to just Chicago, which is the area that triggered you? Then when we look at common sense regulation in Chicago alone, we get an interesting picture - a person who wants to get a gun can buy one, but only if he leaves the city, as the city prohibits gun stores. And anyone who wants a CCW can get one, but only if he leaves the city, as the city prohibits gun ranges and live fire is required to qualify for a CCW. So really, looking at Chicago one sees that ‘common sense’ regulation appears to mean ‘technically one can buy a gun, but we won’t actually allow any stores to sell them, and technically one can get a CCW, but we won’t actually allow you to perform all of the steps to get one’. > > That suddenly looks a LOT less open than you were trying to present it as. In fact, that looks an awful lot like how anti-abortion laws work, where you get ‘well, there’s not a TECHNICALLY a ban, but you need to travel way out of the area to do it, sucks to be you if you don’t have time off from work and means for long distance travel’. This shows just how little you know. Chicago is surrounded by suburbs that this doesn’t apply to, and there is no ‘long distance travel’ required. What do you think the maximum time from the heart of Chicago to a suburb you can get your CCW and gun is? 20 minutes? Holy shit what an imposition:rolleyes: You are as ignorant of Chicago area geography as you are of its gun grabbiness apparently. Why don’t you worry about where you live and let Chicagoans worry about our home. Thanks for the concern though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-pick-up-deep-red-legislative-seat-in-missouri/808347.md?page=5)