# Dems should look to Repubs for our strategy, platform, and leaders... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899 "2004-11-09T21:09:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/41 "2004-11-10T14:32:01Z")
With respect, **Shodan** , I think you’re missing the point in regard to gay marriage, admittedly a touchy subject. The Dems do not wish to impose gay marriage on anyone; you, for example, will not be forced to pair up with a hot, muscled leather daddy (more’s the pity). What we wish is to _allow_ people to be able to choose to marry or not, and not be barred from sharing the civil benefits of legal union. The Pubs misled, OK, flat-out lied, to churchgoers by whipping up fears that the government would make churches extend their sacramental marriage ceremonies to people they consider sinners. Nothing could be further from the truth. Marriage is a civil institution; atheists can get married, as can Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists, none of whose marriages were solemnized in a Christian church. I think that pursuing gay marriage in an election year was stupid and I said as much in several posts over the summer, but that does not mean that the principle of personal freedom is unsound. While I do want the Dems to stop demonizing the Pubs, we must not forget that there is a serious difference in the way you and we view the rights of the individual. Today’s Daily Kos puts it very well: > [@](#): > > Republicans seek to impose their version of “values” on the rest of us, while liberals trust people to make such choices for themselves. We truly believe in freedom. > > I’m vegan, but would never seek to impose that on anyone. If veganism was in the Bible, you can bet they’d be attempting to legislate it. The Pubs are the party of social control and imposition of rigid “values” (sexual prohibitions only–all other sins, like greed and gluttony, are A-OK) on society. Your party has allied itself with people who wish to suppress the teaching of science in schools and substitute Mesopotamian creation myths in its place. We, in contrast, are the true party of knowledge, freedom, and individual liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/42 "2004-11-10T15:09:30Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > So is attacking a entire segment of the population okay if it’s only a _particular_ segment of the population? Are liberals more fair game than “middle America” just because they’re liberals, or because they’re further from some hypothetical political average? Or is it okay to insult a large group of people if it works to your political advantage instead of your political disadvantage? I’m not talking about “okay.” It’s perfectly OK to insult Bush voters by calling them stupid. I’m suggetsing it may not be wise political strategy. It’s perfectly OK to insult liberals, and a wiser political strategy because they are perceived as farther from the political center. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/43 "2004-11-10T15:13:21Z")
**gobear** , I don’t think comparing Republicans and liberals is quite right. One is a political party, the other is a school of thought. Would you draw similar comparisons between Democrats and conservatives? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/44 "2004-11-10T15:19:06Z")
I was talking to **WeirDave** on the phone last night,m and he brough up an interesting point–the most aggravating aspect of the extreme left is the assumption thatr being liberal makes one inherently more intelligent and insightful than others and thus any position they take is the intelligent and insightful one. This, to me, is no different than the extreme Christian right saying that their postiion are from God and thus are beyond debate or even questioning. Smarmy self-righteousness is annoying, stupid, and counter-productive; as Oliver Cromwell, himself no slouch in the blending God with politics department, put it, “I bessech thee in the bowels of Christ to consider whether you may be wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/45 "2004-11-10T15:20:10Z")
I was talking to **WeirdDave** on the phone last night, and he brought up an interesting point–the most aggravating aspect of the extreme left is the assumption that being liberal makes one inherently more intelligent and insightful than others and thus any position they take is the intelligent and insightful one. This, to me, is no different than the extreme Christian right saying that their political policies are from God and thus are beyond debate or even questioning. Smarmy self-righteousness is annoying, stupid, and counter-productive; as Oliver Cromwell, himself no slouch in the blending God with politics department, put it, “I beseech thee in the bowels of Christ to consider whether you may be wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/46 "2004-11-10T15:53:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not talking about “okay.” It’s perfectly OK to insult Bush voters by calling them stupid. I’m suggetsing it may not be wise political strategy. It’s perfectly OK to insult liberals, and a wiser political strategy because they are perceived as farther from the political center. Well, I _was_ talking about “okay” because it’s the moral issue that I’m more interested in right now. I too am sick of being insulted. I’m sick of being insulted by the Ann Coulters, the Michael Savages, the Rush Limbaughs, and the Sean Hannities, who apparently have given to themselves the moral authority to call me “evil”. I’m sick of people on the right bitching about a lack of civility in political discourse but not condemning the right’s own demagogues because insulting liberals is a “wise political strategy”. I’m sick of people like **manhattan** loading their supposedly “well-meaning advice” with claims that I’m anti-American just because I read Daily Kos. I’m sick of the wingnut wing of the Republican party weeping crocodile tears that the left is just so _mean_ and _lacking moral values_, when those people wouldn’t recognize the Sermon on the Mount if Jesus himself came and shouted it in their faces. I guess that places me “farther from the political center” too. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/47 "2004-11-10T15:58:54Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > Well, I _was_ talking about “okay” because it’s the moral issue that I’m more interested in right now. I too am sick of being insulted. I’m sick of being insulted by the Ann Coulters, the Michael Savages, the Rush Limbaughs, and the Sean Hannities, who apparently have given to themselves the moral authority to call me “evil”. I’m sick of people on the right bitching about a lack of civility in political discourse but not condemning the right’s own demagogues because insulting liberals is a “wise political strategy”. I’m sick of people like **manhattan** loading their supposedly “well-meaning advice” with claims that I’m anti-American just because I read Daily Kos. I’m sick of the wingnut wing of the Republican party weeping crocodile tears that the left is just so _mean_ and _lacking moral values_, when those people wouldn’t recognize the Sermon on the Mount if Jesus himself came and shouted it in their faces. > > I guess that places me “farther from the political center” too. I sympathize with your discomfort – think how I feel sometimes on this very board? To answer your question, I don’t think it’s “OK” no matter which side indulges in it. Ann Coulter’s book “Treason,” takes perfectly defensible disputes over liberal policies and transforms them into an argument that liberals hate America. That’s clearly an outrageous conclusion. But since the right is targetting the left and not the middle, they aren’t losing nearly as many votes as the left is targetting the center. Thus the distinction between “OK” and “sound strategy.” ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/48 "2004-11-10T16:24:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I sympathize with your discomfort – think how I feel sometimes on this very board? Now if only I could “log off” from the entire country. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/49 "2004-11-10T18:40:54Z")
**Talon Karrde** wrote > [@](#): > > What the fuck is with the singling out of Stoid? Seriously, he/she/it seems to be one of the less extreme on the left. This looks to me like some kind of bizarre ganging up on people one at a time tactic, and it’s fucking low. Yep. **Stoid** is the victim of another vast right-wing conspiracy. Here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/50 "2004-11-10T18:50:09Z")
The girl can take it, bless her heart. And take note: the people who attack her just attack her, generally because they can’t refute the facts she presents. I expect there will be some lessening in that, since our tighty righty brethren have a new tack to take, when they cannot refute an argument or counter some factual presentation, they start jumping up and down and yelling “Mandate!”. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/51 "2004-11-10T18:54:15Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Manhattan, go fuck yourself. Tell you what – give me a free subscription to that commercial porn site in your profile and I’ll consider it. But while I’m off enjoying self-love, consider that what I _should_ be doing is getting flown on a private jet down to the Greenbriar to meet with Democratic poo-bahs to tell them how to win. That popular-vote swing from a narrow Gore plurality to a Bush majority? It wasn’t the fundies. It was me. I’m the guy you lost. I voted for President Clinton the second time around and I voted for Al Gore (back before he turned into a sociopath – how glad are we that _he_ wasn’t in charge after 9-11 if a mere election sent him as bat-shit insane as it obviously did?). I’m an atheist who thinks that gays should marry, that human rights should be part of our trade policy and that statues of Justice should be topless at press conferences. How did I get from someone who voted for Al Gore to someone who will never, ever, _ever_ vote for anyone who so much as accepts his endorsement? That’s the question facing the Democrats. Don’t want the answer? That’s your call. > [@Orbifold](#): > > I’m sick of people like manhattan loading their supposedly “well-meaning advice” with claims that I’m anti-American just because I read Daily Kos. Then stop. fucking. reading. him. Sheesh, you guys are dumb sometimes. Here’s another group that’s fallen firmly into the anti-American camp and needs to be put right. The people at [sorryeverybody.com](http://www.sorryeverybody.com/). Wanna win a national election ever again? Hunt down all of the people on that site and tell them to get right. Tell them that loyal Americans take care of our differences amongst ourselves. Tell them we do _not_ apologize to other countries for our democratic decisions. Then, just to emphasize the point, bitch-slap them. Hard. Exception: Some of the people at that site are saying things like “[please don’t bomb (location)](http://www.sorryeverybody.com/upload_files/se24.jpg).” Just tell them that loyal Americans do not prostrate before terrorists and get them a plane ticket to a country that can stomach them if there is such a place. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/52 "2004-11-10T19:15:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gay marriage was never our issue, it was an issue thrust upon us by our enemies, and it means almost nothing. Sure, they’ll pass their amendment, by way of throwing a sop to his base. Unless the Republicans picked up about 15 Senate seats that I’m unaware of, that Amendment still has no chance of passing. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/53 "2004-11-10T19:24:52Z")
**elucidator** wrote > [@](#): > > The girl can take it, bless her heart. And take note: the people who attack her just attack her, generally because they can’t refute the facts she presents. When **Stoid** talks politics, I don’t believe I’ve **ever** seen her present **anything** factual. Or if she has, it’s just been too hard to find amongst the blood and tears. Those who rely on blood and tears rather than logic in their arguments find her diatribes well-reasoned, as their own reasoning abilities are typically on par with hers. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/54 "2004-11-10T19:24:57Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Unless the Republicans picked up about 15 Senate seats that I’m unaware of, that Amendment still has no chance of passing. T’aint 15 Senate seats you need to worry about, punkin, it’s 10 state referenda. And not by slim margins, either. You still don’t get it. If Washington types say (IMO, wisely) “leave it up to the states”, y’all are going to get screwed blue, and not by your domestic partner, either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/55 "2004-11-10T19:28:26Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Wanna win a national election ever again? Hunt down all of the people on that site and tell them to get right. Tell them that loyal Americans take care of our differences amongst ourselves. Tell them we do _not_ apologize to other countries for our democratic decisions. Then, just to emphasize the point, bitch-slap them. Hard. Exception: Some of the people at that site are saying things like “[please don’t bomb (location)](http://www.sorryeverybody.com/upload_files/se24.jpg).” Just tell them that loyal Americans do not prostrate before terrorists and get them a plane ticket to a country that can stomach them if there is such a place. I don’t agree with **Manhattan** on much, but here I can only say “amen.” FUCK all those lefty whingers who are ass-kissing to the world about how awful America is! Yeah, Bush and the Pubs suck, but this is our country and we’ll settle our problems our way. And you pussies who want to run off to Canda? Go, there’s the door, see ya! If you are such a lily-livered wuss that the mere loss of an election is enough to make you throw up your hands in despair, then we can do without you. Taking back America is going to take hard work and guts, and if you don’t have the stomach for the fight, then your departure will be an asset to those of us who love our nation enough to fight for it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/56 "2004-11-10T19:42:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > T’aint 15 Senate seats you need to worry about, punkin, it’s 10 state referenda. And not by slim margins, either. > > You still don’t get it. If Washington types say (IMO, wisely) “leave it up to the states”, y’all are going to get screwed blue, and not by your domestic partner, either… And won’t you be proud. Got any gay friends, **Shodan**? I haven’t many, between 2 and 10, depending on how you cut the line between friend and acquaintance. One of them is a 'Nam vet who was shot before he realized he was a corrupt creep with no standing to regard himself as a worthy American. I don’t know if his wheelchair is a homo. Never asked. How do you tell them that you support an Admin that regards them as being unworthy of the same considerations afforded straight citizens? Do you seize them by the lapels and scream “Ha! Screw you! Mandate! Mandate!” Or do you say “Look, its nothing personal. I don’t despise you, but I support and defend people who do despise you. Say, do these slacks go with this shirt?” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/57 "2004-11-10T20:00:25Z")
As a liberal, I can’t accept this advice to turn the democratic party into a clone of the republican party, even if it wins us votes. My goal is to convince the country to become more leftist, to agree with my position. I’m not a liberal because it’s currently popular, I’m a liberal because I think it’s the right political philosophy. No matter how far to the right Democrats go, Republicans will be able to go even further. I for one won’t play that game. It’s a no win (for us) situation. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/58 "2004-11-10T20:11:28Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > When **Stoid** talks politics, I don’t believe I’ve **ever** seen her present **anything** factual. Someone’s panties are aflame. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/59 "2004-11-10T20:12:24Z")
By the way, virtually the only people yammering about a “mandate” are those Dems who profess outrage over the possibility that Bush will not share power with them based on the fact that he won a close election. Criminy, it’s 2000 all over again. Get used to the idea that GWB couldn’t care less about reconciliation or your conception of a “mandate”. He’s going to try to ram his policies through no matter how loudly you whine. Prepare for battle where it counts, and stop making yourselves look ridiculous by griping “But he doesn’t have a _mandate_”. Coming to a decaying theater near you, “The Passion of the Stoid”. Free conspiracy theories to the first 10 ticketholders who show up in sackcloth and ashes, no matter how long it takes to reach that number. \*special guest appearance by Pee Wee Herman in the role of John Ashcroft. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/60 "2004-11-10T20:13:53Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > As a liberal, I can’t accept this advice to turn the democratic party into a clone of the republican party, even if it wins us votes. My goal is to convince the country to become more leftist, to agree with my position. I’m not a liberal because it’s currently popular, I’m a liberal because I think it’s the right political philosophy. > > No matter how far to the right Democrats go, Republicans will be able to go even further. I for one won’t play that game. It’s a no win (for us) situation. I don’t think anyone here is argung that the Dems become clones of the Pubs; what I’m saying is that we keep the ideals, but stop acting like pussies and letting the Pubs claim (falsely) that they are the party that respects morals and American values. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899.md?page=4)