# Dems should look to Repubs for our strategy, platform, and leaders... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899 "2004-11-09T21:09:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/61 "2004-11-10T20:21:12Z")
jack, the man himself called it a mandate. All kinds of news people are calling it a mandate. However, if one pays attention to the way it is being used, it becomes clear that very few of the people using the word understand what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/62 "2004-11-10T20:26:21Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Then stop. fucking. reading. him. Sheesh, you guys are dumb sometimes. Hey, I have a better idea. Why don’t I read whatever the fuck I want, evaluate it critically, form my own goddamned opinions, and _then_ you can decide whether I’m anti-American or not based on what I _say_ and _do_ rather than what I _read_. If I said that everyone who reads “Treason” was a knuckle-dragging oppressive troglodyte you and **Bricker** and who knows who else would happily (and correctly) point it out as another example of how the left is just so gosh-darned _mean_. If you’re so bound and determined to judge how much I support America, at least have the balls to judge me on my own merits. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/63 "2004-11-10T20:52:03Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > As a liberal, I can’t accept this advice to turn the democratic party into a clone of the republican party, even if it wins us votes. My goal is to convince the country to become more leftist, to agree with my position. I’m not a liberal because it’s currently popular, I’m a liberal because I think it’s the right political philosophy. And if the GOP had held on to this sort of “in your heart you know we’re right and we won’t change” philosophy after the Goldwater debacle in '64, we would have had a long unbroken line of Democratic presidents after LBJ. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/64 "2004-11-10T21:04:48Z")
Aw goddam contrary, **Jack**. Most students of “movement” conservativism say that that’s _precisely_ what happened, with the “Western” hard-liner conservatives wresting power from the “eastern” conservative “elitists”, culminating in the triumph of Reagan. The moderate conservatism of the Rockefeller types is just about sunk. Ah, Goldwater in '64. When LBJ was the “peace” candidate… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/65 "2004-11-10T21:09:37Z")
Fuck it, let’s just set up guillotines in Farragut Square, Lafayette Park, and The Mall and let the Justice of the the Republic be done! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/66 "2004-11-10T21:11:32Z")
Monsieur Marat, a M’selle Corday to see you… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/67 "2004-11-10T21:42:56Z")
I believe **elucidator** has forgotten one of our more illustrious Presidents, fits in somewhere between LBJ and Reagan, fella name of Nixon. Somewhat to the left of Goldwater. And even more to the left of GWB. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/68 "2004-11-11T00:25:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And if the GOP had held on to this sort of “in your heart you know we’re right and we won’t change” philosophy after the Goldwater debacle in '64, we would have had a long unbroken line of Democratic presidents after LBJ. I’m digging in my heels and standing my ground. Kerry was hardly a “Goldwater” of the left. Goldwater got 38% of the vote to Johnsons 61%. A margin of victory of 22%. Compare this to Bush (51%) and Kerry (48%). A 3% margin of victory. Hardly an insurmountable obstacle. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/69 "2004-11-11T00:40:57Z")
Stoid, you still looking for people to post examples of your radical politics? Try these: How 'bout the environment? This: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=901547&postcount=24](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=901547&postcount=24) And this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=880702&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=880702&postcount=1) And this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=977888&postcount=10](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=977888&postcount=10) > [@](#): > > Here again I need to whip out my very favorite statement in the world about animals, with which I agree completely: > > “We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creatures through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, we greatly err. For the animals shall not be measure by man. In a world older and more complete, gifted with extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings. They are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth.” – Henry Beston And this one: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2533105&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2533105&postcount=1) > [@](#): > > The Environment, above all else. I’m a passionate believer that the preservation and care of the natural world is the most important issue our species faces, and that we have a sacred duty to care for the earth and her creatures, for itself and for humanity. Apparently property rights are anathema to you to, too: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=973746&postcount=78](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=973746&postcount=78) > [@](#): > > But I don’t consider the Alaskan wilderness to belong to you, or to Alaskans in general, any more than I consider the Rain forest of Brazil as “belonging” to Brazilians. It “belongs” to itself or to everyone. How about your rabid feminist stance? This single post is a good example. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2247132&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2247132&postcount=1) > [@](#): > > I’m an old-school feminist, weaned on burned bras and the ERA, The Feminine Mystique . Our Bodies Ourselves, Ms. and Gloria Steinem. Here’s a fun one. Let’s make the president (as long as he’s a democrat, of course) above the law. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1195193&postcount=45](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1195193&postcount=45) > [@](#): > > The President of the United States is, arguably, the most important, impactful (is that a word? Works for me at the moment) and critically important job on Earth. The position, rightfully, carries special rights and special privileges. He is NOT Joe Shmo with his lunchpail, hittin’ the bricks every day. He is, trite but true: the Leader of the Free World. Here’s one that’s not so fun. “All in a day’s work?” What the fuck? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1196818&postcount=56](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1196818&postcount=56) > [@](#): > > Oh, and as for “sexual harassment” - I’m a woman, I’ve been sexually harassed, I’ve been raped, I’ve been sexually assaulted and I’ve been molested. Bill Clinton pulling out his penis, looking like a dope, then stuffing it back in, with no consequence to Jones for her rejection of him is just all in a day’s work in the battle of the sexes. Not enough? How 'about your _own fucking admission_ of your pride in holding “the most radical view possible.” [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=974093&postcount=97](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=974093&postcount=97) > [@](#): > > Suffice it to say that I am happy to be the hypocritcal Angeleno who holds the most radical view possible. Somebody has to, and since I have zero power to impose my views on anyone in this, or any other circumstance, i wouldn’t worry too much about how over the top I may appear to you. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/70 "2004-11-11T01:20:55Z")
Ooooo…Unclebeer’s got issues with the Stoid! Betcha that took a chunk out of your day. And I don’t think any of it really qualifies me as in any way radical in my politics. Especially my feelings about the environment. You certainly didn’t see me applauding Earth First!, now did you? My feminism is also not radical. Andrew Dworkin and Catherine Mckinnon are radical, and it is that faction that has managed to make us believe that is it empowering to women to infantilize them. In any case, you have failed to show that I agree with or support any kind of radical politics. Liberal, definitely. Radical, no. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/71 "2004-11-11T02:47:44Z")
Um… **Stoid**? He quoted you as saying you were “happy to be the hypocritcal Angeleno who holds the most radical view possible.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/72 "2004-11-11T03:30:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > In any case, you have failed to show that I agree with or support any kind of radical politics. Liberal, definitely. Radical, no. If believing that Alaskans cannot own their land is not radical, perhaps you could share an example of a radical view of land ownership. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/73 "2004-11-11T04:18:31Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > **elucidator** wrote > > When **Stoid** talks politics, I don’t believe I’ve **ever** seen her present **anything** factual. Or if she has, it’s just been too hard to find amongst the blood and tears. And **Bill H.** is exactly right. See **UncleBeer’s** post # 69 in this thread. In all of the links to Stoid’s posts, there’s nary a fact to be found in any of them. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/74 "2004-11-11T04:24:27Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Um… **Stoid**? He quoted you as saying you were “happy to be the hypocritcal Angeleno who holds the most radical view possible.” No, silly, **Stoid** voted for being a radical, before she voted against it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/75 "2004-11-11T04:24:44Z")
Which, of course, might have been why he picked them? What was the last **milroyjit** post that was anything other than personal ankle-biting? ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/76 "2004-11-11T05:45:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > PS - Oh, and on preview, you did notice, did you not, that the anti-gay marriage proposals passed by wider margins than elected Bush? So I don’t know that there are hordes of moderates who will leap to your side with a happy cry if you identify too strongly with the gay marriage thing. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I infer from this that you suggest that the lefties should put aside their principles and get on board with this fag-bashing thing because apparently its quite popular. If this is not what you are implying here, can you please explain what you meant? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/77 "2004-11-11T06:28:23Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Sheesh, you guys are dumb sometimes. Here’s another group that’s fallen firmly into the anti-American camp and needs to be put right. The people at [sorryeverybody.com](http://www.sorryeverybody.com/). Wanna win a national election ever again? Hunt down all of the people on that site and tell them to get right. Tell them that loyal Americans take care of our differences amongst ourselves. Tell them we do _not_ apologize to other countries for our democratic decisions. Then, just to emphasize the point, bitch-slap them. Hard. Exception: Some of the people at that site are saying things like “[please don’t bomb (location)](http://www.sorryeverybody.com/upload_files/se24.jpg).” Just tell them that loyal Americans do not prostrate before terrorists and get them a plane ticket to a country that can stomach them if there is such a place. “…if there is such a place”? To the extent that almost none of the world’s countries outside of the US form part of the Coalition of the Willing, shouldn’t have too much trouble finding one. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/78 "2004-11-11T07:40:46Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > And **Bill H.** is exactly right. See **UncleBeer’s** post # 69 in this thread. In all of the links to Stoid’s posts, there’s nary a fact to be found in any of them. 10 posts out of 6000. Yep, that proves everything. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/79 "2004-11-11T07:52:28Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Here’s another group that’s fallen firmly into the anti-American camp and needs to be put right. The people at [sorryeverybody.com](http://www.sorryeverybody.com/). Wanna win a national election ever again? Hunt down all of the people on that site and tell them to get right. Tell them that loyal Americans take care of our differences amongst ourselves. Tell them we do _not_ apologize to other countries for our democratic decisions. Then, just to emphasize the point, bitch-slap them. Hard. Where to begin… first off, a lot of people who are American citizens have an honest (and I would argue rational) desire to be respected around the world. As such, apologizing for what they view as the wrong decisions of their countrymen seems a perfectly acceptable thing to do. To move on. Loyal Americans take care of their differences among themselves? Am I to understand that correctly, you used the word **loyal** , and meant it? Surely you are not implying that someone is disloyal-as-an-American if they believe it is right to apologize rather than keeping it ‘in the family?’ Why on earth can’t free American citizens decide to do whatever they want as long as they do not harm persons or property? If an American citizen believes that, oh, say, France should be more involved in our country’s affairs, who are you to call him disloyal? Or is one socio-political ideology now the only one considered **loyal**? (By the way, I’m not a democrat or a republican, but phrases like ‘loyal American’ are why nobody who talks like that or accepts the endorsement of someone who does will ever get my vote) Now, obviously, some of your fellow American citizens belive, strongly, that we’ve made a mistake. They believe that this mistake is so serious that they need to apologize for it. Why on earth should we not apologize for our democratic decisions? If we voted to make religion official and ban evolution, would the rational/scientific members of the American citizenry be required, out of ‘loyalty’, not to distance themselves from their wacko-fundie countrymen? > [@manhattan](#): > > Exception: Some of the people at that site are saying things like “[please don’t bomb (location)](http://www.sorryeverybody.com/upload_files/se24.jpg).” Just tell them that loyal Americans do not prostrate before terrorists and get them a plane ticket to a country that can stomach them if there is such a place. First, it is a very reasonable/rational fear which many Americans have: the global policy and rhetoric of George W. Bush will increase recruits to terrorist organizations and, untimately, have the effect of making us **more** likely to suffer another catastrophic attack. To someone, say, living in Blue New York, there may very well be a bit of personal fear. Kansans scared of terrorism, (for whatever reason they possibly were scared of being hit…) have now made probable that people who are are in cities like NYC or DC are now more likely to be attacked. I can understand how that might bring with it some fear and/or worry. “please don’t bomb \_\_\_\_” is, in my mind, a perfectly valid reaction to feeling that your country is heading on a path towards certain danger. It’s the “OH FUCK!” response. And, again, **loyal Americans** want to see what is best for America and themselves, and as such, maybe some even feel that instead of viewing it as some pissing contest where we are either prostrate to or bombing the fuck out of terrorists, maybe there is another more ‘nuanced’ answer. Maybe, just maybe, Americans can speak their minds and be loyal at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899/80 "2004-11-11T07:56:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If believing that Alaskans cannot own their land is not radical, perhaps you could share an example of a radical view of land ownership. Is Alaska a country, Bricker? Why no, it isn’t. If Alaska gets drilled, it won’t be Alaskans drilling their own backyards, don’t be dishonest. And read the whole thread if you are interested in the argument, it’s all there, I’m not going to redo it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-should-look-to-repubs-for-our-strategy-platform-and-leaders/273899.md?page=5)