# Dems vs. Bush2 and Pubs vs. Obama **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007 "2012-02-06T20:30:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/41 "2012-02-07T17:45:36Z")
I’m prepared to accept that the vitriol towards the two men can readily swing into Crazytown with a brief stop at Nutsville, though I don’t recall a Democrat member of congress yelling anything akin to “You Lie!” during a joint-session presidential address. That’s a whole new level of whackadoo. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/42 "2012-02-07T17:47:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would that be an excerpt from the memo…or yet another of your entries in the Non Sequitur of the Year contest? It would be pointing out how little your point of view has to do with reality, and how much on wishful thinking. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/43 "2012-02-07T17:52:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It would be pointing out how little your point of view has to do with reality, and how much on wishful thinking. > > Regards, > Shodan I see. You’ve got nothing. edited to add: If the memo you described exists, you should have no problem linking to it. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/44 "2012-02-07T17:53:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It would be pointing out how little your point of view has to do with reality, and how much on wishful thinking. > > Regards, > Shodan So, therefore, you can prove the memo exists. Right? Right?? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/45 "2012-02-07T17:54:36Z")
John Kerry, like Bill Clinton and Barry Obama, was running for President his whole life. I don’t think he volunteered out of moral courage and a sense of obligation. I can readily see him talking himself into believing that, but I think he went to get his ticket punched. You want to run as a moderate lefty, can’t be better _bona fides_ than a record as a combat veteran to keep the righties respectful. I think Viet Nam changed him, as it did for so many, “some forever, not for better”, in the words of the Lennon lyric. It was a damn fool move, politics wise, to thrust himself into the very front of the anti-war movement. He didn’t have to, he could have skated with carefully rounded words of “concern”, throw a sop to this side, throw another to the other side, and skate. That would have been the smart thing to do. He didn’t do the smart thing, he did the right thing. His feet are clay as much as mine or yours, he is no saint. But when it came choosing what was right for his country against what would serve his personal ambitions, he chose well, if not wisely. May the Goddess hold him fondly close to Her bounteous bosom all the days of his life, amen. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/46 "2012-02-07T17:58:53Z")
I still think it’s a pity the 2004 nomination didn’t go to Howard Dean. The party went with the boring “electable” candidate instead of the interesting “risky” one, rather like the Republicans are now doing with Romney. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/47 "2012-02-07T18:07:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The “something” was Bush would start a war on false pretenses. And like the election issue, you’ve got to concede this one wasn’t made up out of thin air. I wasn’t thinking of that. There was something else about the greater purposes of the conspiracy to start the war. I just don’t remember what it was. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/48 "2012-02-07T18:07:48Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > So, therefore, you can prove the memo exists. Right? > > Right?? > > :dubious: Right. If there were really any doubt, and someone made a good faith request to see it, it could certainly be cited. But there isn’t, and no one has. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/49 "2012-02-07T18:12:04Z")
My elevation to royal status as Queen of Romania is widely known. If anyone could make a “good faith” demand for proof, I would honor it of course. But they won’t because I could have them executed. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/50 "2012-02-07T18:16:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Right. If there were really any doubt, and someone made a good faith request to see it, it could certainly be cited. But there isn’t, and no one has. > > Regards, > Shodan Christ, it’s not like this [hasn’t been discussed here before.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280139) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/51 "2012-02-07T18:18:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Right. If there were really any doubt, and someone made a good faith request to see it, it could certainly be cited. But there isn’t, and no one has. I doubt, and I’d _really_ like to see documents akin to the one described by you. Cross my heart and hope to die. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/52 "2012-02-07T18:21:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Christ, it’s not like this [hasn’t been discussed here before.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280139) Just like I said - there was never any real doubt that the memo existed. **Czarcasm** ’s and **CaptMurdock** ’s requests were not made in good faith, as was obvious. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/53 "2012-02-07T18:21:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Christ, it’s not like this [hasn’t been discussed here before.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280139) Nope=that can’t be it, because it doesn’t say anything like what **Shodan** is describing. He must be talking about some _other_ memo. Right, **Shodan**? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/54 "2012-02-07T18:27:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just like I said - there was never any real doubt that the memo existed. **Czarcasm** ’s and **CaptMurdock** ’s requests were not made in good faith, as was obvious. I know all about _that_ memo. Now where is the Halperin memo _you_ described? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/55 "2012-02-07T18:45:50Z")
My friend, Google. > [@](#): > > …In October 2004 the Drudge Report published a memo Halperin sent to ABC News staff about coverage of the U.S. presidential election directing them not to “reflexively and artificially hold both sides ‘equally’ accountable” and that both John Kerry and George W. Bush used “distortion” in their campaign, but that Kerry’s distortions were not “central to his efforts to win.” Halperin was criticized by conservatives who used the memo to reinforce long-standing complaints of media bias. ABC News spokesman Jeffrey Schneider confirmed the authenticity of the memo and said Halperin “takes his responsibility to be fair as seriously as a heart attack.” In 2006, Halperin would criticize the media for being biased in favor of Kerry after a controversial remark that the senator made… > **[Mark Halperin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Halperin)** > > Mark Evan Halperin (born January 11, 1965) is an American journalist, political commentator, author, and founder of the interactive media platform 2WAY. He previously was political director for ABC News, where he also edited the Washington, D.C., newsletter The Note. In 2010, Halperin joined MSNBC as a senior political analyst and contributor. Alongside John Heilemann, he co-managed Bloomberg Politics, co-hosted With All Due Respect, and co-authored the bestselling books Game Change and Dou In ... Wiki, natch. Smoking gub. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/56 "2012-02-07T19:05:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My friend, Google. > [Mark Halperin - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Halperin) > > Wiki, natch. Smoking gub. Yup. Seen it. Can you show me the memo described here: > [@Shodan](#): > > \*Not the memo that Halperin sent out before the 20904 election telling his news people to slant their coverage against Bush to try to keep him from being re-elected - that was a genuine document. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/57 "2012-02-07T20:01:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I meant\* the forged documents that CBS used on 60 Minutes to try to discredit Bush, and your belief is mistaken. Do you think it possible that the actions of Dan Rather and CBS regarding the documents were not undertaken to discredit Bush, but instead merely to break a ratings-grabbing news story? IOW, do you believe CBS was acting primarily in the interest of seeing that Bush was not reelected? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/58 "2012-02-07T20:04:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yup. Seen it. > Can you show me the memo described here: Well, its right there, isn’t it, though more in the absence! Note that nowhere does it state that reporters should throw themselves prostate before The Leader and greet his every word with glad cries of “Hosanna!” and “Hallelujah!”. That would be the appropriate and factual position and one mindful of the difference between a real American and a traitorous, backstabbing so-called “veteran” who lies to his own diary! Connect the dot, people! Connect the dot! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/59 "2012-02-07T20:05:06Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Right. If there were really any doubt, and someone made a good faith request to see it, it could certainly be cited. But there isn’t, and no one has. [/QUOTE] Actually, if you don’t mind, I would like to see it, as well as some commentary by you on it. I only vaguely remember this, and a quick Google search on my part just turns up a hash of Google vomit on the subject. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007/60 "2012-02-07T20:17:19Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Actually, if you don’t mind, I would like to see it, as well as some commentary by you on it. I only vaguely remember this, and a quick Google search on my part just turns up a hash of Google vomit on the subject. > > -XT A previous thread on the subject was linked to above. Some of my comments are in there. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dems-vs-bush2-and-pubs-vs-obama/612007.md?page=4)