# Depo P Adegbile is rejected by senate. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 8, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187 "2014-03-08T12:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/101 "2014-03-13T19:20:46Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Actually, I would say it is pretty rare that that happens. Most defenses are conventional and try to attack the evidence or the eyewitness accounts. No, that’s the defense you notice because it actually goes somewhere. It’s pretty routine for defense attorneys, for instance, to call for dismissing the charges before a trial even begins on the grounds that the charges are simply outrageous, which is a judge’s prerogative. It rarely happens, of course - but defense attorneys usually go through that motion. Same with setting aside a verdict or whatever. Lots of ways they try, routinely. And if there’s some weird defense they think might work, they’ll try it. They all know about the twinkie defense and stuff like that, and if they have a shot, they’ll take it. Usually they get shot down immediately and move on. > [@](#): > > That is a much more solid way of defending a case. While the occasional oddball defense comes up ('black rage" for the Long Island RR shooter, for example) it is often a desperation tactic for a defenseless case. Yes. Exactly. A desperation tactic. Kind of like in this case. So what? The point is that it happens. > [@](#): > > Longshot defenses are made but still within the realm of possible and conventional. Invoking conspiracies is pretty damn rare in the realm of defense -and conspiracies that accuse people of very vile acts and crimes goes beyond longshot and into the realm of pathetic. Yes, we all think they are pathetic and longshot - but so what? A defense attorney doesn’t give a damn what you think. Only the judge and jury. > [@](#): > > I rather doubt that, or else every trial would be a morass of obscure conspiracy claims, wildcard defenses and other nonsense. Any defense attorney pulling antics like this is wasting his time when concentrating other conventional tactics could work. No, it’s just that these defenses are usually shot down immediately and the attorney moves on. It’s often just going through the motions to preserve a right to appeal or whatever. > [@](#): > > A vigorous defense does not mean throwing everything you can come up with and hope something sticks. Why not? > [@](#): > > He was doing his job when making a case for the improper jury instructions, he did not have a leg to stand on when making conspiracy claims. Which is why he lost. But at least he tried. If he hadn’t, someone could have come along later and said he didn’t represent his client vigorously enough by not trying, and since you can’t just assume a defense is desperate - you have to bring it up, and have the judge or jury officially say that it’s desperate and not accepted - you’d be right back where you started. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/102 "2014-03-13T19:39:51Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > If the guy is innocent, there must have been a conspiracy. Trouble for conspriacy theorists is that Mumia is guilty as hell. > [@](#): > > Personally, I didn’t know too much about Adegbile’s involvement. I was fairly aware of the underlying case. I’ve been googling for the past hour or so to try to learn what this lawyer did that was so offensive. Certainly nothing the senators have said sounds like a valid reason to block the nomination. Hi comments at the time: > [@](#): > > Mumia Abu-Jamal’s conviction and death sentence are relics of a time and place that was notorious for police abuse and racial discrimination. Unless and until courts acknowledge and correct these historic injustices, death sentences like Mr. Abu-Jamal’s will invite continued skepticism of the criminal justice system by the African-American community.” How about: No. Neither the conviction nor the death sentence were relics of anything other than Mumia’s guilt. Trying to blame ‘the man’ for the antics of a painfully obviously guilty cop killer is going towards a lack of judgment that makes me not want this person in any position of judging. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/103 "2014-03-13T19:47:11Z")
Thanks for providing those comments. Whether you agree with them or not, they are hardly so unusual or offensive as to disqualify the person from the position he was nominated for. Philadelphia was, in fact, “notorious for police abuse and racial discrimination.” That may not be been a factor in this particular conviction. My outrage meter is below normal limits. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/104 "2014-03-13T19:57:49Z")
Personally if I’m ever on trial for murder, I want a defense attorney to be mounting a vigorous defense and I really find some of the insistence on the part of so many that it was outrageous to suggest that racism was involved more than a little perplexing. Considering the fact that at the time Philadelphia was 40% black and Mumia wound up with an overwhelmingly white jury and the prosecution used 12 of their 15 preemptory strikes on black jurors it’s pretty obvious they were trying to get as white a jury as possible. Also, yes, in 1981 Philadelphia and the Philadelphia police had a terrible reputation for racism not helped by the antics of former Mayor and former police chief Frank Rizzo. Finally, when you have a case where there were credible claims of police pressuring witnesses to lie and at least one police officer blatantly testalying(the one who claimed he heard Mumia confess to the killing) of course people are going to suspect racism and have questions. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/105 "2014-03-13T20:08:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Thanks for providing those comments. Whether you agree with them or not, they are hardly so unusual or offensive as to disqualify the person from the position he was nominated for. Philadelphia was, in fact, “notorious for police abuse and racial discrimination.” That may not be been a factor in this particular conviction. My outrage meter is below normal limits. Yes, but a certain point the accusation becomes empty. Rizzo had been out of office for a while and wasn’t chief of police for even longer. The city had made a lot of strides in healing over the wounds of the first MOVE confrontation. but even if they hadn’t: This was not a case where racial issues held sway. This was a case where all the evidence pointed towards guilt of a man who tried the most desperate tactics to avoid any punishment for his murderous act. Somehow he later got a fan club and far more attention than warranted. I’ve said this before when discussing the Mumia trial: “The Mumia trial was covered extensively. The papers ran daily articles on the events of the trials. Reporter groups such as the Black Journalists Association watched the unfolding events like a hawk, as well as very liberal leaning newspaper columnists. There was even a decent level of national coverage, but Mumia wasn’t the poster child for the anti-death penalty groups at that time.” If there were racial issues with the trial none of them felt like saying so at the time - and these were folks merely years out of the worst parts of racial strife in this nation. To come along and declare all of the evidence and procedure in the trial to be a ‘relics of a time and place that was notorious for police abuse and racial discrimination’ displays a cluelessness and handwaving that does not make many people very confident in his judgmental abilities. Its the worst kind of ‘People were racist so my client shouldn’t have been convicted of executing that cop on the sidewalk.’ ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/106 "2014-03-13T20:42:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Personally if I’m ever on trial for murder, I want a defense attorney to be mounting a vigorous defense and I really find some of the insistence on the part of so many that it was outrageous to suggest that racism was involved more than a little perplexing. > > Considering the fact that at the time Philadelphia was 40% black and Mumia wound up with an overwhelmingly white jury and the prosecution used 12 of their 15 preemptory strikes on black jurors it’s pretty obvious they were trying to get as white a jury as possible. Consider that is a bullshit myth: [http://justice.danielfaulkner.com/myths-about-mumia/myth-3/](http://justice.danielfaulkner.com/myths-about-mumia/myth-3/) > [@](#): > > Also, yes, in 1981 Philadelphia and the Philadelphia police had a terrible reputation for racism not helped by the antics of former Mayor and former police chief Frank Rizzo. Consider that doesn’t change the fact that every scrap of evidence points to Mumia being the murderer. > [@](#): > > Finally, when you have a case where there were credible claims of police pressuring witnesses to lie and at least one police officer blatantly testalying(the one who claimed he heard Mumia confess to the killing) of course people are going to suspect racism and have questions. Funny definition of ‘credible’. [http://justice.danielfaulkner.com/myths-about-mumia/myth-6/](http://justice.danielfaulkner.com/myths-about-mumia/myth-6/) These cases were so ‘credible’ that they were barely used in the appeals. And what was used was universally rejected. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/107 "2014-03-14T10:32:34Z")
Thanks for all the information on the case. I was having a hard time with google, nothing but birth control options. As always, you guys have given me a lot to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/108 "2014-03-14T13:30:15Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Consider that is a bullshit myth: > > [http://justice.danielfaulkner.com/myths-about-mumia/myth-3/](http://justice.danielfaulkner.com/myths-about-mumia/myth-3/) Nothing in your link suggests the allegation is untrue. It merely points to a non-racist basis for the peremptory challenges. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/109 "2014-03-14T14:20:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Nothing in your link suggests the allegation is untrue. It merely points to a non-racist basis for the peremptory challenges. Note the following: > [@](#): > > It is thus easy for Weinglass to level his accusation against the prosecution outside the courtroom; there is simply no way to prove him wrong on this issue. However, inside the courtroom, where accusations must be backed up with fact, Mr. Weinglass has failed to support his myth. His accusation has twice (1989 and 1998) been reviewed by the State Supreme Court, and was dismissed as being without merit. We kind of work on evidence in the courtroom, not baseless mythmaking. With this alleged ‘stacking’ we still have 25% of the jurors being black. It would have been 33% (one replaced due to breaking sequestering) but Mumia himself exempted one of the black jurors. Not fully representative of the 40% population but in a pool as small as a jury a single person can warp the percentages. The idea that an all-black jury or 40% black jury would have let the cop executor go free is frankly insulting to all races. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/110 "2014-03-14T18:02:04Z")
Not the point. The prospect of a biased jury is anathema, regardless of what outcome is anticipated. Further, Mumia’s behavior was irrational and unreasonable, why would you point out his refusal of a black juror as proof of something? His refusal of competent representation is nuts, but his denial of a particular juror is reasonable and intelligent behavior? I haven’t got a set opinion on this, I lean heavily towards guilty. But justice must not only be done, but seen to be done. A black man has a tough enough time, a black activist radical presents a daunting prospect for a clearly objective trial. Extraordinary diligence is required, not for his sake, but for ours. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/111 "2014-03-14T18:24:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not the point. The prospect of a biased jury is anathema, regardless of what outcome is anticipated. Further, Mumia’s behavior was irrational and unreasonable, why would you point out his refusal of a black juror as proof of something? His refusal of competent representation is nuts, but his denial of a particular juror is reasonable and intelligent behavior? My point is that if you are going to claim that the DA deliberately excluded potential black jurors from the case (with good reasons as the listing shows: many of them had listened to his show, etc) then you can’t just overlook Mumia excluding a black juror as well. Mumia was not irrational, he only acted irrational and did lots of stunts in the trial in the hopes of getting a mistrial. It didn’t work. > [@](#): > > I haven’t got a set opinion on this, I lean heavily towards guilty. But justice must not only be done, but seen to be done. A black man has a tough enough time, a black activist radical presents a daunting prospect for a clearly objective trial. Extraordinary diligence is required, not for his sake, but for ours. Due diligence has been done and done on this case. I’m all for letting the man have his appeals but his lawyers tried to have the case decided via mythmaking outside of the courthouse where propaganda ruled the day, not evidence. Once brought into the courthouse and analyzed with greater care the claims were found extremely wanting. If you are going to claim that the DA excluded challenges on the basis of race (which is illegal) then you will need to prove that. In the case of each juror there were good reasons: listening to Mumia on his old radio show, being against the death penalty in a capital case, or just answering DA questions well enough. I’ve been removed from a jury pool for less. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/112 "2014-03-14T18:35:24Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > …Mumia was not irrational, he only acted irrational and did lots of stunts in the trial in the hopes of getting a mistrial… Please submit your Certificate of Telepathic Power for our inspection. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/113 "2014-03-14T18:57:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Please submit your Certificate of Telepathic Power for our inspection. He’s submitting it telepathically right now. Can you see it in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/114 "2014-03-14T19:44:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Please submit your Certificate of Telepathic Power for our inspection. You really need telepathic powers to see that when someone makes ludicrous demands (such as demanding another non-lawyer and even more radical person in prison act as his lawyer) in a capital case they are trying to anything but work for a mistrial? Even Dan Williams (part of Mumia’s lawyer team who made up a lot of the Mumia myths) admitted that was was Mumia was trying for. Mumia practically tore the page from Bobby Seale’s courtroom playbook. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187/115 "2014-03-14T20:22:38Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > You really need telepathic powers to see that when someone makes ludicrous demands (such as demanding another non-lawyer and even more radical person in prison act as his lawyer) in a capital case they are trying to anything but work for a mistrial?.. To suggest it as a plausible motivation? No. But your certainty exceeds that, it appears that no shadow of doubt haunts you. It should. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/depo-p-adegbile-is-rejected-by-senate/683187.md?page=5)