# Der Trihs, a word **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 10, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172 "2006-05-10T02:29:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/161 "2006-05-13T02:29:42Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > Being an atheist, I may be misinterpreting what I see, or not seeing all of it–but the way _I_ see it, most religious people believe because they were told to by their parents. I wouldn’t say the President has anything to do with it, but our culture does\* and maybe the President is a symbol of that. That said, I see where you’re coming from, as few believers would outright say “I believe because my parents and the people around me believe” (even though it’s usually true, and often true even for atheists) … That’s not at all what I see around me, though. At least 50%, probably more, of the people I go to church with are converts from some other belief (or lack thereof). And I live in an area with a good number of people who have grown up with their religion; go to any country outside the US, and the percentage climbs steeply. Several of those people, including my SIL, have converted despite enmity from family members. Quite a few of my religious friends of other denominations have done the same; most grew up in non-religious households. Unless you can explain that, you need to try to understand it better. More and more religious people _are not_ that way “because their parents were,” and the numbers are only going to grow. Your interpretation is not going to keep being valid for very much longer. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/162 "2006-05-13T03:02:04Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > That’s not at all what I see around me, though. At least 50%, probably more, of the people I go to church with are converts from some other belief (or lack thereof). So, 50% of these people were Jews, Buddists, and Muslims before they joined your church? Or, was it more likely that they were just another form of Christian and they liked your church more than the one they came from? > [@New Iskander](#): > > The best I remember, “Religion was opium of the masses”. Okay, so you’ve finished on indoctrination session. What did you do for the rest of the time? Have it drummed into you why their way was better perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/163 "2006-05-13T03:03:55Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Okay, so you’ve finished **on** indoctrination session. What did you do for the rest of the time? Have it drummed into you why their way was better perhaps? Great Googly Moogly, ‘one’, not ‘on’! ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/164 "2006-05-13T04:30:22Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, 50% of these people were Jews, Buddists, and Muslims before they joined your church? Or, was it more likely that they were just another form of Christian and they liked your church more than the one they came from? Well, my SIL (actually two of them come to think of it) was Buddhist, yes. Mostly people have come from nothing-in-particular, or sometimes Catholic, or evangelical–it’s all over. I’ve known some Jews too. We can’t baptize Muslims without special permission; it’s a blanket policy to keep people from getting killed by family members, but there have been some. Then my one brother became Russian Orthodox, that was quite interesting. 🙂 Don’t try to count my brothers and SIL’s, it gets confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/165 "2006-05-13T05:55:03Z")
> [@](#): > > **Uzi** : Both are belief systems that have been used to justify mass murder, though… Isn’t Democracy a belief system? I think the cause of Democracy is being used to justify mass murder. I believe in Democracy (although that may seem irrational to some), but I don’t believe in the slaughter of people in Iraq _for any reason._ It amazing how easily belief systems can be used to justify mass murder when the words are changed just a little bit. But it still starts with thinking you are right and ends with a lot of dead people. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/166 "2006-05-13T06:01:05Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Isn’t Democracy a belief system? I think the cause of Democracy is being used to justify mass murder. I believe in Democracy (although that may seem irrational to some), but I don’t believe in the slaughter of people in Iraq _for any reason._ > > It amazing how easily belief systems can be used to justify mass murder when the words are changed just a little bit. But it still starts with thinking you are right and ends with a lot of dead people. Do you believe democracy works, or does it work regardless of your belief? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/167 "2006-05-13T12:50:40Z")
> [@George Kaplin](#): > > In my defence, I may be disrespectful of religion but I don’t consider myself hostile to the religious. It is true that I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for religious beliefs, as even the most laudable are essentially irrational (While a noble sentiment, and one with which I wholly concur, I consider even the ‘Golden Rule’ to be irrational since the reason given for following it is to appease an imaginary being). There is, I think, a qualitative difference between asserting that someone is labouring under a delusion and asserting that someone is evil for being under a delusion. What I ask of people on both sides is that if you don’t respect the belief then try to respect the person’s right to choose for themselves and treat the person who holds those beliefs with respect. Inevitably if we share our beliefs, their will be some conflicts. I think that’s healthy if handled correctly. > [@](#): > > This may jibe with what I said earlier about finding **Der Trihs’** debate style refreshing, but just because I find his snappy, spartan posts a welcome change of pace to, well, posts like mine, doesn’t mean I support him when he condemns all believers as stupid or evil. I reluctantly admit that you and **fetus** have changed my view somewhat. Perhaps in a world to dominated by Falwells, Swaggarts and the like folks like **Der Trihs** are the natural response to get the dialogue rolling. Fortunately there are others options as well. > [@](#): > > **cosmosdan** > > I agree. However there is, I think, a qualitative difference between _challenging_ a belief on the one hand, and flat out _denying_ it on the other. To challenge a belief is to assume it has some validity, although not enough to justify holding it in the light of possible alternatives. > > Take the Problem of Evil, for instance. It culminates in a straightforward denial of God’s existence. However this conclusion follows from premises which necessarily assume, purely for the sake of argument, that God _does_ exist (eg. ‘God is all knowing’). I see you point but am not sure how you are using it. We can challenge beliefs on a single issue rather than the entire belief system, such as gay rights. My stand is to challenge the belief when it spills over into society. If someone believes aliens are sending kindness and compassion into their brain I don’t mind if they are actions reflect those qualities. > [@](#): > > From what little I’ve seen of him, **Der Trihs** doesn’t even deign to use traditional atheistic arguments. He simply refuses to entertain in depth discussion on the matter until his evidentiary demands have been satisfied. I think that attitude annoys some of the boards theists nearly as much as the insults do. I wish he would refuse to engage. The problem IMO is that he inserts himself in many spiritual discussions only to say that belief is foolish etc. If he truly believes the discussion is foolish there is no need to repeatedly say so. Simply don’t participate. > [@](#): > > But that’s the trouble with irrational belief. As Sam Harris said, _“Belief is like a lever which, when pulled, moves almost everything else in a persons life”_. Someone who really, truly, believes that the pernicious influence of his homosexual neighbours could corrupt his children and put them on the fast track to hell is going to do everything in their power to ostracise them, including vote for measures restricting their freedoms. The God of Abraham is so intolerant in so many ways that theistic assaults on secularism are pretty well inevitable so long as his name still has cultural weight. My approach is to encourage believers to think for themselves and be willing to challenge traditional doctrine and dogma. > [@](#): > > I agree, he can go overboard. I certainly don’t think all religious people are evil, or sick, or whatever. I come from quite a religious background myself. However, I _do_ agree with him that there is no factual basis for religious belief, and that consequently there is no reason to elevate it above any equally unsupported belief in any other sphere of inquiry. I agree with that as well. IMO and in my discussions with traditional Christians, if what they seek is the truth, then they ought to be willing to at least consider something other than what their pastor or priest is telling them. How do you seek the truth by insulating yourself within one belief system? Where I disagree with\*\* Der Trihs\*\* is that he consistently insists on judging the spiritual by objective evidence. That strikes me as being disingenuous since so much of it is subjective. > [@](#): > > I agree, and that is precisely why I’m puzzled by its priviledged status in public discourse. Whatever facts are litter Christian discourse, they don’t support its central tenets. Every belief that makes Christianity a religion as opposed to an intellectual history has its basis in the supernatural and the apocryphal. For instance, we can prove St. Paul existed. That’s an easily verifiable historical fact. We cannot, however, prove he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. And that’s what really counts, isn’t it? No actually, What counts is how our beliefs are reflected in our choices and our actions. I think out of a sesne of honesty it’s nice to acknowledge what we have factual evidence for and what we don’t. I think facts can help people evaluate and poossibly reshape their belief system {they sure have for me} however, If someone takes the Bible literaly and uses that belief to help others I will appreciate their actions rather than critisize their beliefs. I don’t think belief in a diety is the issue. It is how that belief is used. As a helping hand or a fist. > [@](#): > > I don’t think this comparison holds water. There is no objective standard by which beauty or country music can be judged. Religious claims about the world, by contrast, can be judged against observable reality. I wouldn’t consider someone a _dick_ for believing in transubstantiation. I’d certainly have no trouble calling them wrong, but that’s as far as I’d go. Yet for some unaccountable reason to do so is considered deeply rude That’s my point. Much of religion and the spiritual journey is subjective and there is no objective standard by which it should be judged. It’s okay to say “I don’t believe that” and I think we should encourage respect in the choices of others. To say that someone must be a delusional fool to believe something on a subjective level does strike me as rude, coming from either side. I am a non traditional believer. When people say “There is no objective evidence to prove that God exists” my reaction is “Yes I know,…so what” What amuses me is the realization that all people operate with a subjective belief system and faith. Even the atheist who sees himself { or herself}as much more objective. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/168 "2006-05-13T13:08:09Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > What I ask of people on both sides is that if you don’t respect the belief then try to respect the person’s right to choose for themselves and treat the person who holds those beliefs with respect. Now that would be a novel idea. Somehow, I don’t see it happening any time soon, unfortunately. [QUOTE=cosmosdan] I reluctantly admit that you and **fetus** have changed my view somewhat. Perhaps in a world to dominated by Falwells, Swaggarts and the like folks like **Der Trihs** are the natural response to get the dialogue rolling. Fortunately there are others options as well. [/QUOTE} There are plenty of christians, who would be happy to (as Goldwater once suggested) kick Falwell’s ass. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > . I don’t think belief in a diety is the issue. It is how that belief is used. As a helping hand or a fist. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/169 "2006-05-13T14:07:30Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Now that would be a novel idea. Somehow, I don’t see it happening any time soon, unfortunately. Sigh, me neither. I still feel compelled to try though. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of christians, who would be happy to (as Goldwater once suggested) kick Falwell’s ass. HA, I saw that quote here once and laughed my ass off. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/170 "2006-05-13T14:43:09Z")
> [@](#): > > My approach is to encourage believers to think for themselves and be willing to challenge traditional doctrine and dogma. Is it, then, your assumption that believers have never thought for themselves before? Do you assume that in all cases? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/171 "2006-05-13T15:13:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Sigh, me neither. I still feel compelled to try though. > HA, I saw that quote here once and laughed my ass off. ROFL. When I first read that quote, I started to really look into Goldwater, and ya know what? Despite the political rhetoric of his time, I decided he was A-OK. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/172 "2006-05-14T00:36:31Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Is it, then, your assumption that believers have never thought for themselves before? Do you assume that in all cases? No it most certainly is not, since I am a believer. My experience tells me that many believers {I’m not even saying most} accept what is taught to them by others either by family tradion or by association. In my own history I had a real spiritual experience that started me on the path but at the time I associated the experience with the people I was around when it happened and accpeted their doctrine and teaching. I can think of several other people I know that this has happened to. Tradition is also a very influential factor in organized religion. People accept what the group believes in part because they have affection and trust for the group. Nothing horrible about that but when it comes to a pursuit of spiritual truth then we must be willing to examine the facts, and our hearts and ask ourselves honestly "What do I believe? What questions do I have? and then choose based on that. Most people accept this so it must be right, isn’t enough. My Pastor or priest said this so it must be true, isn’t good enough. This is what Mom and Dad taught me so it must be right, isn’t good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Jotun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jotun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jotun)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/173 "2006-05-14T01:27:58Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > My experience tells me that many believers {I’m not even saying most} accept what is taught to them by others either by family tradion or by association. > > Most people accept this so it must be right, isn’t enough. > My Pastor or priest said this so it must be true, isn’t good enough. > This is what Mom and Dad taught me so it must be right, isn’t good enough. This is what I think bothers me most about some of the religious people I deal with on a day to day basis. As an example, my girlfriend’s family is fundamentalist Christian. She isn’t so literal in her beliefs as they are though. It causes no end of frustration for us since I am atheist, but we manage. Spending time around her family is enjoyable, as I think they respect me now (I hope). They are a very giving and polite family. The oddest thing is that her brother and sisters (all of them highschool age) all have this vitriolic hate for homosexuals. I asked them why they believe this, and all I learned was that wasn’t natural and their church had always said so. Apparently the old adage “love the sinner, hate the sin” doesn’t apply to homosexuality? I completely agree with you that people in general (not just the religious) shouldn’t just accept what people tell them. Critical thinking is in short supply in this world. It’s actually refreshing to hear a Christian with this viewpoint. I don’t know too many who share it. I hope it’s contagious! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/174 "2006-05-14T01:42:51Z")
I searched **Der Trihs’s** recent posts and, although he’s been on the boards, and, in fact started a thread in the BBQ pit that is directly above this one, I don’t see him making an appearance in here. I admit to not reading the entire thread, but did he make any attempt to explain himself or to deal in any way to with his fellow posters about this issue? If not, personally I think that’s a pretty cowardly thing to do. So you can add that to your list. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/175 "2006-05-14T01:55:00Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Can I disprove TO YOU that ethics and religion are mutually exclusive? No. Would a majority of people disagree with your statement, yes. The best lie is one that is 99% truth. That is why religions cloak themselves in the morality of their society. Arthur C. Clarke has said it best: “The greatest tragedy in mankind’s entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.” There is a very nice discussion of religion and morality [here](http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/relmor.htm) . > [@](#): > > Religion and morality go together like boiled beef and carrots. You often find them together but it is perfectly possible to have one without the other. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/176 "2006-05-14T02:04:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **Uzi** : Do you believe democracy works, or does it work regardless of your belief? I guess that would depend on what your meaning of “work” is. In my opinion, sometimes Democracy works and sometimes it doesn’t. Because I believe, I participate. Does that make it stronger? Not necessarily – not anymore. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/177 "2006-05-14T05:20:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > No it most certainly is not, since I am a believer. Oops, sorry, I did catch that earlier. > [@](#): > > Most people accept this so it must be right, isn’t enough. > My Pastor or priest said this so it must be true, isn’t good enough. > This is what Mom and Dad taught me so it must be right, isn’t good enough. Well, I certainly agree with that one. However, it is what my mom and dad taught me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/178 "2006-05-14T07:36:34Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Oops, sorry, I did catch that earlier.Well, I certainly agree with that one. However, it is what my mom and dad taught me. 😃 Ha, Good one. I think you know that what I’m saying is many people can and do examine what is taught to them by others and decide that it fits them. That’s okay by me. Just examine for youself. Being a child , a parent and a grandparent i find that failry often parents do have something valuble to offer. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/179 "2006-05-14T07:39:55Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The best lie is one that is 99% truth. That is why religions cloak themselves in the morality of their society. > > Arthur C. Clarke has said it best: “The greatest tragedy in mankind’s entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.” > > There is a very nice discussion of religion and morality [here](http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/relmor.htm) . I agree with you, noting that not all religious people do that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172/180 "2006-05-14T07:50:27Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Voyager** , take off your blinders for a moment and listen. What part of my saying I’m only opposed to **absolute** religions don’t you understand? Perhaps my happy and friendly chats with **cosmosdan** makes you think I hate all religious people. Or my saying that **Polycarp** was more moral than god? Or my stimulating logical discussions with **Lib**. I certainly do believe all religion is incorrect. I think that some people accept clearly incorrect and illogical religous tenets (and these are not just Christians) to the point of being delusional. I think most religious people would agree, if not with regard to those who follow their own religion. I have never said that all religion is evil. Some religious beliefs justify immoral acts by some, some might even encourage those easily led to be immoral. I think even most religious people would agree here also. But please don’t accuse me of simplistic attacks on religion. I should have enough of a posting record by now to be immune to such charges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-a-word/356172.md?page=10)