# Der Trihs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150 "2009-11-03T08:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/361 "2009-11-07T16:48:49Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But your premise and your conclusion are one and the same. You postulate that our beliefs are stupid, and then conclude that our beliefs are stupid. What you don’t understand is that your reasoning is stupid. Says a gullible sheep who believes childish mythology without any evidence. Maybe you should remove the duralog from your eye before calling other people stupid. 😃 > [@](#): > > No. You’d be a better person if you’d shut up. Or at the very least, be civil. It’s hard to be civil when stupid children are trying to make you live your life based on their imaginary friend’s desires. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/362 "2009-11-07T17:13:36Z")
I recognize that religion makes some people feel good. I have no desire, however, to see them trying to impose on others in the belief it’ll make them feel good, too. Hence the obnoxious guy wanting creationism in science class is about the same as the obnoxious guy at the party who keeps insisting that everybody take a bong-hit. No, thanks. Get lost. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/363 "2009-11-07T17:50:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hence the obnoxious guy wanting creationism in science class is about the same as the obnoxious guy at the party who keeps insisting that everybody take a bong-hit. No, thanks. Get lost. But I’ve never run into an obnoxious guy at a party supporting legislature that everyone must take a bong hit. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/364 "2009-11-07T17:57:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Each and every one of the Christians on this board could be kind, courteous, and loving to people they know to be atheists, and it wouldn’t make a fuck’s worth of difference in the grand scheme of things _because they cannot be heard over the screaming zealots that own the politicians and overwhelmingly influence the media._ The government we have is majority rule, and if the far right, which has the money to do so, wants to get across their point of view, that is the point of view that the public will eventually accept because advertising works. > Let me repeat: _Advertising Works_. > To deny this, to deny that spending millions to influence laws and the public is effective, which is exactly what is being done by religions, is to deny reality. > The individual nice guys that have been used as examples are appreciated, but right now it’s like offering a glass of ice water to a person that has been staked out and lit on fire. Again I ask: Overall(NOT in individual isolated cases), what has being meek and mild done for atheists over the last three thousand years? Okay Czarcasm, I’ll bite. Can you show me some instances of when being an obnoxious asshole converts people to your way of thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/365 "2009-11-07T18:20:01Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > Okay Czarcasm, I’ll bite. Can you show me some instances of when being an obnoxious asshole converts people to your way of thinking? Limbaugh. What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/366 "2009-11-07T18:37:44Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > But I’ve never run into an obnoxious guy at a party supporting legislature that everyone must take a bong hit. Missed the Obama Inauguration, did we? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/367 "2009-11-07T18:54:21Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > :rolleyes: > > You have a measure of sympathy from me. Open atheists rarely get elected to office, they are demeaned for standing up for the Establishment clause, and there are many who looked down on by believers. > > But “repression”? Child, please. It’s ironic that you are nitpicking that in your view it does not amount to true repression, responding to a question about what _level_ of repression is appropriate. So, I guess in your case the answer is “a bit more than now.” ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/368 "2009-11-07T21:29:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At what point, at what level of repression should we atheists become _un_civil? > Or is the only good atheist the one that “goes with the flow”? Let me rephrase this so it’s more accurate: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Help help, I’m being repressed! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/369 "2009-11-08T01:17:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > For me, the best part of the Road to Damascus was when Bob was trying to sneak out of town wearing the fez, while Bing and Carmen Miranda were performing the “Hot Night In The Harem” number. I want to see that movie. In heaven. But where’s Dottie? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/370 "2009-11-08T01:47:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At what point, at what level of repression should we atheists become _un_civil? > Or is the only good atheist the one that “goes with the flow”? > [@Fantome](#): > > Nice straw man. The quote by **DT** above is not his reasoning why believing in sky gods is stupid. He’s given his reasoning plenty of times. I can link to some posts for you if you like. Of course. That’s exactly what this thread is about. It’s not about some phony heart felt concern about what hate is doing to him. It’s about shutting atheists up when they don’t argue nicely and don’t give religion respect it doesn’t deserve. I’m not seeing all of this incivility by **DT**. He argues hard and pulls no punches; but he’s civil as far as I have seen. Is his level of incivility anything like the example **Yeticus Rex** posted for how much hate **DT** spews that makes him comparable to Phelps? Because that was a joke. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Hah, you think you can fry my irony meter just like that? I’ll have you know that I installed state-of-the-art surge protectors for just such an eventuality. I’ll just power down, restart and… > > #&(\*#@(^\*@()!!! > > Rats. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Says a gullible sheep who believes childish mythology without any evidence. Maybe you should remove the duralog from your eye before calling other people stupid. 😃 > > It’s hard to be civil when stupid children are trying to make you live your life based on their imaginary friend’s desires. Guys, I’m not asking every atheist to shut up. And I’m not asking Der Trihs to shut up because he’s an atheist. I’m asking him to shut up because he’s an asshole. There is a very famous modern atheist philosopher named [Daniel Dennett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett). I have read almost all his work and have enormous respect for him. The thing he said that has stuck with me the most is: “There is nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” And to me, that’s exactly what Der Trihs does. He makes bad arguments for views that thinking men like Dennett hold dear. I really don’t care if you make fun of my beliefs. True, I used to. But not anymore. Hell, in your shoes, I’d probably make fun of them too. But I haven’t lived your lives. I don’t know what your life experiences are. So I can only respect or disrespect you based on how you treat me, not on what you do or do not believe. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/371 "2009-11-08T01:52:40Z")
I’m not sure it’s necessary to craft an elaborate or deep atheist argument. “Your religion is based on made-up stuff unless you can prove otherwise,” will do, and while I’m sure this Dennett guy has thrown a lot of effort into the matter, it’s redundant. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/372 "2009-11-08T02:14:01Z")
This Dennett guy? 😃 That’s like an evolutionist talking trash about this [Eugenie Scott](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenie_Scott) woman. And made up stuff unless I can prove otherwise? Prove to me what you dreamed about last night while you were sleeping. Your brain was very active. You should have no problem providing evidence to support what you claim to have dreamed, should you? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/373 "2009-11-08T02:26:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again I ask: Overall(NOT in individual isolated cases), what has being meek and mild done for atheists over the last three thousand years? Quite a bit. Compare their treatment to that of the Jews in Europe, the Muslims in Spain or the Christians in Japan. I’ll also note that atheism only became intellectually respectable --or even conceivable in some ways-- in the late 1800s. Personally I oppose fundamentalism in all its forms, but theism doesn’t especially bother me. To answer an earlier question, I suspect that mainline Christians don’t attack fundamentalists vociferously because they want their churches to remain as big tents. There is also a commitment to ecumenicalism to consider. Yes, this grants a big part of the stage to those like the late Jerry Falwell. But again, most Christians - that is most Americans- understand that followers of Jesus are a diverse bunch. The other awkward fact is that Evangelical churches are growing, while mainline ones have membership problems. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/374 "2009-11-08T02:46:32Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > I’m not familiar with more than a small fraction of decision theory, but I do likes me some Bayesian belief-updating. And every time a prayer goes unanswered (for example), that’s another update to P(God). > Maybe _you_ don’t want to hijack the thread with an atheist/agnostic cagematch, but _I_ do, so there. 🙂 Incidentally, my decision theory shtick was partly smoke blowing, insofar as my knowledge of that field is spotty. But sorry, I’m not going to engage here: that debate belongs in GD. In the past, I’ve had to modify my position somewhat following discussions with **Voyager**. One of the rare atheist/agnostic smackfests was conducted in April 2008: [“I don’t believe in God” versus “I believe God doesn’t exist”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=462502&highlight=consciousness+hacker+hobbyist+zookeeper). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/375 "2009-11-08T03:02:22Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > This Dennett guy? 😃 That’s like an evolutionist talking trash about this [Eugenie Scott](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenie_Scott) woman. And made up stuff unless I can prove otherwise? Prove to me what you dreamed about last night while you were sleeping. Your brain was very active. You should have no problem providing evidence to support what you claim to have dreamed, should you? It doesn’t matter; I’m not using my dreams as justifications for legislation or insisting my dreams be the subject of science classes. If all religious people had the same attitude, it wouldn’t be an issue because who outside the religion would care? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/376 "2009-11-08T03:09:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And made up stuff unless I can prove otherwise? Prove to me what you dreamed about last night while you were sleeping. Rats, you caught us in your trap! Since nothing can be proven, belief in sky faries is as rational as any belief. Well done! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/377 "2009-11-08T11:02:26Z")
**Measure for Measure** , I’m not even sure what you mean when you say that mainline Christians want the fundamentalist churches for their big tents. Huh? It’s generally against our beliefs to attack other people. (Although we do it, of course.) Generally we are more likely to attack their policies. > [@](#): > > …they are demeaned for standing up for the Establishment clause, and there are many who looked down on by believers. I have faced exactly the same problem and I am a Christian. I support the Establishment clause. I think it’s the healthy approach for both church and state. From within the school system itself (as a classroom teacher) I have taken a position in opposition to any required prayers or daily Bible readings. And I have done that in a Southern school. You wouldn’t believe the things that have been said to me. If I had it to do over, I think I would make a big stink about the harrassment. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/378 "2009-11-08T13:59:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > During my college years, I self-identified as agnostic. > > Then I had an experience which caused me to believe, to KNOW, that God was there. > > And it wasn’t dramatic. It can’t even be explained. Nothing outwardly happened. > > I don’t offer this recollection to evangelize, to suggest that anyone else should believe based on an experience only I had. But at the same time, it was sufficiently convincing for me that I can’t NOT believe. > > Perhaps in that sense, it WAS a road-to-Damascus thing. Strange…but I would consider my Damascus moment one that led me away from organized religion, and allowed me to use my own mind. To see that religion was created by humans, for humans, and that it was desire that caused a person to think it was God . That was 30 years ago and I have never been more at peace. I find my beliefs stronger each day. There are many intrepretations for the word God. Each person has the right to their own beliefs or non beliefs. What ever helps them get through life as a better person. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/379 "2009-11-08T14:14:16Z")
My moment came while watching _Ghost_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/380 "2009-11-08T14:27:37Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > :rolleyes: > > You have a measure of sympathy from me. Open atheists rarely get elected to office, they are demeaned for standing up for the Establishment clause, and there are many who looked down on by believers. > > But “repression”? Child, please. So you admit that atheists have almost no voice in government, we are demeaned, and we are looked down upon. What more would you want to happen so that you could put atheists in the “repressed” category? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=20)