# Der Trihs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150 "2009-11-03T08:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/381 "2009-11-08T14:45:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > There is a very famous modern atheist philosopher named [Daniel Dennett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett). I have read almost all his work and have enormous respect for him. I notice a key word missing from that link you provided-atheism. Can you come up with a person you like who can _publicly_ influence large amounts of people _by speaking on the topic of atheism itself?_ Someone who can get on the Sunday talk shows, the news networks and/or the nationally syndicated radio shows, and talk directly on the topic of atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/382 "2009-11-08T16:15:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > There is a very famous modern atheist philosopher named [Daniel Dennett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett). I have read almost all his work and have enormous respect for him. The thing he said that has stuck with me the most is: “There is nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” Yes, bad _arguments_. If **Der Trihs** or anyone else makes bad arguments you SHOULD be pointing out the flaws in those arguments, regardless what side you’re on. Definitely. But that’s completely different from “making good arguments, but being kinda disrespectul about it”, which is what this thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/383 "2009-11-08T22:40:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not sure it’s necessary to craft an elaborate or deep atheist argument. “Your religion is based on made-up stuff unless you can prove otherwise,” will do I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion saying things like “nyah nyah you believe in the made up sky fairy” is anything other that rude. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/384 "2009-11-08T22:43:05Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Let me rephrase this so it’s more accurate: Please don’t change quotes within quote tags. If you want to do the same with quotation marks, that’s fine, but the quote tags are sacrosanct. No warning issued. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/385 "2009-11-08T23:22:43Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion saying things like “nyah nyah you believe in the made up sky fairy” is anything other that rude. Because it’s true? If anything that’s overly polite; believing in God is even more stupid than believing in fairies since they are more physical and less grandiose in their supposed powers. That’s exactly why you get mockery like the Flying Spaghetti Monster - because the FSM is at least as plausible as God ( probably more ) and has just as much evidence for it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/386 "2009-11-08T23:27:05Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion saying things like “nyah nyah you believe in the made up sky fairy” is anything other that rude. And I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion, saying things like “Although there is no presentable evidence, I believe in (insert sky fairy of choice)” they have the right to be offended when called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/387 "2009-11-08T23:44:49Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion saying things like “nyah nyah you believe in the made up sky fairy” is anything other that rude. I didn’t say “nyah nyah”. If you’ve got some evidence that religious beliefs are anything other than fabricated in the minds of men, lay it on us. 5000+ years of human history and as far as I can tell, it’ll all been swapping one piece of fiction for another. If you can’t provide such evidence, then the time for nyah is nigh. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/388 "2009-11-09T00:01:18Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion saying things like “nyah nyah you believe in the made up sky fairy” is anything other that rude. Lots of us know it’s considered rude. It’s still correct, though. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/389 "2009-11-09T00:19:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion, saying things like “Although there is no presentable evidence, I believe in (insert sky fairy of choice)” they have the right to be offended when called on it. And yet, you wonder why people don’t like you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/390 "2009-11-09T00:25:56Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > And yet, you wonder why people don’t like you. We know _ **exactly** _ why people don’t like us. Foolish people never like it when someone points out their foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/391 "2009-11-09T00:34:52Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Please don’t change quotes within quote tags. If you want to do the same with quotation marks, that’s fine, but the quote tags are sacrosanct. Sacrosanct, huh? Go after him **Der Trihs**! Religious fanaticism cannot be tolerated in our moderators!! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/392 "2009-11-09T00:35:46Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > And yet, you wonder why people don’t like you. Out of curiosity, what’s the nice way to say it? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/393 "2009-11-09T00:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > But I haven’t lived your lives. I don’t know what your life experiences are. So I can only respect or disrespect you based on how you treat me, not on what you do or do not believe. (Jumping in, haven’t red whole thread (this time…)) Really? Cause of how accommodating our laws are for atheists, and how none of them are hatched, inspired, campaigned for, and rammed home by churches? Witness Maine, California, and 29 others regarding Civil Rights for homosexuals - our Federal laws alone make 1100 distinctions alone, and none of them are favorable. At best,they are separate but equal, but generally separate and not equal. I am on the front grounds of this debate here in California, and I have not heard a single argument proposed in support of such laws that resonated with anyone that was at best barely disguised appeals to religion, generally there is no disguise at all. I thought (I ain’t no expert, but I have my ears open) that Jesus’ teaching was about loving people and living by the Golden Rule. I have a hard time believing that those that pass these votes are true Christians at all, but I don’t see the True Christians standing up to counter their faux-believers in the next pew. some will engage me honestly behind the scenes, and I appreciate that, but it is always “off the record” and never of much practical value in getting the fauxs to stfu. So if you want respect, then work to halt the people who use religion to alter the secular lives of people, whether they are religious themselves or not, simply for who they are. Could standing up for the oppressed be any more in line with what Jesus would do? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/394 "2009-11-09T01:13:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I’ve never understood why otherwise intelligent people seem to think that when it comes to religion, saying things like “Although there is no presentable evidence, I believe in (insert sky fairy of choice)” they have the right to be offended when called on it. Although I’d suggest that it would be simple courtesy not to call them on it unless their unsupported belief will impact you/us. (I like this [xkcd strip on Beliefs](http://xkcd.com/154/)). Some of us fortunately seldom end up in this position, but it does seem from reading these boards that US atheists have rather more reason to be vocal and (yes, even perhaps a bit asshole-ish) about it to get their point and dissatisfaction across. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/395 "2009-11-09T01:34:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We know _ **exactly** _ why people don’t like us. Foolish people never like it when someone points out their foolishness. Or maybe people don’t like you because you act like a complete tool? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/396 "2009-11-09T01:48:34Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Measure for Measure** , I’m not even sure what you mean when you say that mainline Christians want the fundamentalist churches for their big tents. Huh? It’s generally against our beliefs to attack other people. (Although we do it, of course.) Generally we are more likely to attack their policies. I guess I didn’t make myself clear. I’m saying that a mainline church wouldn’t want to necessarily chase away those who leaned toward biblical inerrancy, for example. They certainly would be wary of doctrinal disputes. My “Big tent” was suppose to refer to worshippers: I wasn’t trying to claim that one church was trying to subsume another. Of course my guesses may be off mark. It’s my impression that mainline churches don’t go out of their way to attack fundamentalism. I believe that they have solid organizational reasons for doing this. Am I wrong? A noted exception to my generalization is [the United Church of Christ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcv9u9x3z8). **Czarcasm** has presumably seen their ads as well: I concede that they are outweighed by the noise of the Religious Right. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/397 "2009-11-09T02:05:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We know _ **exactly** _ why people don’t like us. Foolish people never like it when someone points out their foolishness. Regarding my remarks upthread, this relates to why I thought your goal wasn’t persuasion. (see post 322) You seem to believe that the religious won’t listen to you anyway, so diplomacy is fruitless. On matters of war and peace, Der’s views are far to the left of the Democratic Party and have zilch chance of being implemented for the next few decades. So tact may be a mugs game in that case as well. Furthermore, Der is bright enough to understand **Princhester** ’s contention that comments leavened with hostility rarely persuade anyone. That said, Der’s positioning has the virtue of making most of us lefties appear moderate, though it also mandates that we play cleanup every now and then. To be clear though, it appears that Der doesn’t take the position that I ascribe to him. More generally, Der’s posts are poorly substantiated, generally speaking. It’s really not sufficient to be correct. You have to be _demonstrably_ correct to operate at the top levels. OTOH, Der’s take-downs have the advantage of speed and succinctness. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/398 "2009-11-09T02:17:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > More generally, Der’s posts are poorly substantiated, generally speaking. …to operate at the top levels. It also helps not to repeat the same word over and over and OVER again… if one wants to play at the “top levels”. Generally speaking. :smack::smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/399 "2009-11-09T02:41:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or maybe people don’t like you because you act like a complete tool? Even if I grant that description, that hardly explains the general national hostility towards atheists. Most people who hate me don’t even know I exist and never will; they hate me because of what I believe, not because of anything I’ve said much less done. I don’t suck up to their fantasy, so I’m a monster to them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/400 "2009-11-09T03:41:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Even if I grant that description, that hardly explains the general national hostility towards atheists. Most people who hate me don’t even know I exist and never will; they hate me because of what I believe, not because of anything I’ve said much less done. I don’t suck up to their fantasy, so I’m a monster to them. So what explains the hostility towards everyone here? The hyperbole, the exaggerations, the extreme and ridiculous bullshit you spew? And it’s NOT just about religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=21)