# Der Trihs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150 "2009-11-03T08:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/481 "2009-11-10T19:08:58Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > You figured this all out without knowing me or my friend. Absolutely astounding. Yes, kind of like if you told me you have a blonde friend, I would figure out his hair color. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/482 "2009-11-10T19:18:17Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > We all have to find, as a Wiccan ex-girlfriend of mine once put it, our own truth. Except you aren’t looking for truth. You’re looking for appealing fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/483 "2009-11-10T19:19:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If you believe in God, and the God you believe in revealed himself to you and told you homosexuality was a sin, what would you do? I’ll deal with that when/if it happens. But even if it is a sin, it’s not something for me to concern myself with until I’ve removed the plank from my own eye. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/484 "2009-11-10T19:26:33Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I think this is an excellent example of a major problem with religions where the adherents hold their holy books as inerrant. Yeah, no _true_ religion would do this. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/485 "2009-11-10T19:26:37Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > It is hard to believe, because atheism isn’t a “view”. We didn’t just pick our horse at random like believers, our side has huge amounts of actual evidence. For an atheist, respecting a theist is like respecting something like a conspiracy nut. If you like the guy you ignore his rants, and nod politely waiting for him to finish. “Yes, I understand you think Obama was born in Kenya. Personally I kno… I mean I think… No no (oh god, he’s gonna start ranting) ok, let’s just agree to disagree. Hey how about this weather eh?” > > You may even geniunely respect the person if he’s smart in other areas, but it’s impossible to respect his crazy religious views. Religious people don’t seem to understand this, because they assume we chose our “belief” like they did. > > His atheist friend does not respect his views. He’s faking. I was not aware that being an atheist requires me to have no respect for the beliefs of others, or to treat those beliefs as the ravings of a delusional lunatic. I guess I’ll have to turn in my atheist card. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/486 "2009-11-10T19:29:07Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > I was not aware that being an atheist requires me to have no respect for the beliefs of others, or to treat those beliefs as the ravings of a delusional lunatic. I guess I’ll have to turn in my atheist card. I guess so. You can’t be an atheist and consider it rational to believe in god. It’s a straight contradiction. You can be polite, out of politeness, but that’s different from respect. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/487 "2009-11-10T19:36:46Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > It is hard to believe, because atheism isn’t a “view”. We didn’t just pick our horse at random like believers, our side has huge amounts of actual evidence. For an atheist, respecting a theist is like respecting something like a conspiracy nut. If you like the guy you ignore his rants, and nod politely waiting for him to finish. “Yes, I understand you think Obama was born in Kenya. Personally I kno… I mean I think… No no (oh god, he’s gonna start ranting) ok, let’s just agree to disagree. Hey how about this weather eh?” > > You may even geniunely respect the person if he’s smart in other areas, but it’s impossible to respect his crazy religious views. Religious people don’t seem to understand this, because they assume we chose our “belief” like they did. > > His atheist friend does not respect his views. He’s faking. You do not KNOW these people. That’s just it. You don’t know his friend. Hell, my parents have different beliefs than I do. Do I consider them deluded? No. Just…they believe something else. I don’t assume anyone chose anything, nor do I give a shit if they did or not. In fact, I don’t give a shit if someone believes in a god, doesn’t believe, if someone’s a Buddhist, a Christian, a Jew, or worships an old sweatsock. Just don’t be a jackass. That’s all. Don’t try to force me to believe what you do, and we’ll get along just fine. You know, “live and let live?” Besides, I thought **Der Trihs** hated religion because it was dangerous. Now, I think he just likes to be a jagoff to anyone he disagrees with. (Or, just a jagoff, period). And again, it ain’t just his views on religion. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/488 "2009-11-10T19:45:50Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > I guess so. You can’t be an atheist and consider it rational to believe in god. It’s a straight contradiction. You can be polite, out of politeness, but that’s different from respect. I don’t have to consider anyone’s beliefs to be rational in order to respect their right to have them. That seems to be the major disconnect that I’m seeing here. Dismissing someone as not worthy of your respect because of something they believe is no less bigoted than not respecting them because of the color of their skin, or where they were born, or their sexual preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/489 "2009-11-10T19:49:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Yeah, no _true_ religion would do this. I never said that those who hold the Bible as the literal word of God were not a true religion. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/490 "2009-11-10T19:59:11Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > In fact, I’ve used that to brush aside some of Paul’s own teachings, since they don’t ring as true to me. I hold certain things in the Qu’ran as true and others as not, along with teachings in Buddhism, Judaism, the Gnostic Gospels, various New Age philosophies, and anything else I can find. I really don’t understand this. If you belong to X brand of religion, how can you disregard parts you don’t like? If these “sacred texts” are written by or inspired by your deity of choice how can you to say, “I don’t like this part, I’ll just ignore it and only follow the pink fuzzy stuff” and still consider yourself X? Who is to say that the parts you ignore are the parts the deity in question likes the best? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/491 "2009-11-10T20:09:54Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > I don’t have to consider anyone’s beliefs to be rational in order to respect their right to have them. That seems to be the major disconnect that I’m seeing here. Then you have trouble with reading comprehension. No one in this thread mentioned not having respect for the right to believe irrational things. > [@](#): > > Dismissing someone as not worthy of your respect because of something they believe is no less bigoted than not respecting them because of the color of their skin, or where they were born, or their sexual preferences. When **Gustav** said: _"You can be polite, out of politeness, but that’s different from respect "_, he was responding to your quote (bolding mine), _"I was not aware that being an atheist requires me to have **no respect for the beliefs** of others_. Being polite to them is showing the person respect so he did not say he dismisses anyone “as not worthy of respect.” Respecting the belief is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/492 "2009-11-10T20:34:29Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I really don’t understand this. If you belong to X brand of religion, how can you disregard parts you don’t like? If these “sacred texts” are written by or inspired by your deity of choice how can you to say, “I don’t like this part, I’ll just ignore it and only follow the pink fuzzy stuff” and still consider yourself X? Who is to say that the parts you ignore are the parts the deity in question likes the best? I have to go by my conscience. If I read something in a sacred text and it doesn’t sit right with me, then I have no choice but to discard it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/493 "2009-11-10T20:54:50Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > Dismissing someone as not worthy of your respect because of something they believe is no less bigoted than not respecting them because of the color of their skin, or where they were born, or their sexual preferences. To hell with that. There’s a big difference between not respecting someone because of the amount of melanin in their skin, and not respecting them because they are proudly, wilfully ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/494 "2009-11-10T20:56:13Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Good thing none of that applies to me. Then again, as I said before, I like sugar in my porridge. Ok, but please explain the sugar remark, you’ve lost me I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/495 "2009-11-10T20:57:01Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I have to go by my conscience. If I read something in a sacred text and it doesn’t sit right with me, then I have no choice but to discard it. And this is why I’ve always considered religion – organized religion based around “sacred texts” and precepts – to be bupkis. In the end, it all comes down to what you, personally, feel is morally right, and all the Bible or Koran or whatever does is validate your personal beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/496 "2009-11-10T20:58:07Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > Dismissing someone as not worthy of your respect because of something they believe is no less bigoted than not respecting them because of the color of their skin, or where they were born, or their sexual preferences. Not really, because I can imagine losing respect for someone who insisted on believing (or at least insisted on claiming to believe) that two plus two equalled five. It would make me suspect a desire to evade reality and make me less inclined to respect (or want to be around) that person. If they insisted on believing all variety of demonstrably untrue things, my respect for them would drop accordingly. If they kept such beliefs to themselves, then no problem. Trouble is, they _aren’t_. Religion is being used to influence law and the teaching of science, and that’s simply unacceptable and entirely unworthy of respect. If you want to believe 5,000 impossible things before breakfast, that’s your business. When you _vote_ that way, or stand on the side of people who vote that way, you’re just going to have to suffer the corresponding loss of respect. If you don’t like it, that’s just too bad. Feel free to disrespect us back if it’ll make you happy, though that in no way will lend even a sliver of evidence to any of your 5,000 beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/497 "2009-11-10T21:00:33Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > Ok, but please explain the sugar remark, you’ve lost me I’m afraid. I was trying to head off the inevitable No True Scotsman argument at the pass. > **[No true Scotsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)** > > No true Scotsman or appeal to purity is an informal fallacy in which one modifies a prior claim in response to a counterexample by asserting the counterexample is excluded by definition. Rather than admitting error or providing evidence to disprove the counterexample, the original claim is changed by using a non-substantive modifier such as "true", "pure", "genuine", "authentic", "real", or other similar terms. > Philosopher Bradley Dowden explains the fallacy as an "ad hoc rescue" of a refuted ge... ETA - The original argument was about how no true scotsman likes sugar on his porridge. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/498 "2009-11-10T21:03:01Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I have to go by my conscience. If I read something in a sacred text and it doesn’t sit right with me, then I have no choice but to discard it. Well done, you’ve taken your first steps towards atheism. If you can justify ignoring parts of a text, that is presumably the word of your chosen deity, then you can ignore all of it. If you pick and choose which bits you like what validity does the text have then? Also, how do you presume that your conscience or morality is better than that of your deity? Maybe if there is a god he’s evil and wants us to burn witches, torture heretics, stone homosexuals, kill our firstborn etc and all of that other insanity in Leviticus (Fairly sure that’s the section I mean, it’s been a long time since I picked up a copy of the “good book”). ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/499 "2009-11-10T21:28:21Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > And this is why I’ve always considered religion – organized religion based around “sacred texts” and precepts – to be bupkis. In the end, it all comes down to what you, personally, feel is morally right, and all the Bible or Koran or whatever does is validate your personal beliefs. Add me into this category as well. I’m not a fan of organized religion and I feel it should be a choice to each person to accept or deny it. > [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > Well done, you’ve taken your first steps towards atheism. If you can justify ignoring parts of a text, that is presumably the word of your chosen deity, then you can ignore all of it. > > If you pick and choose which bits you like what validity does the text have then? > > Also, how do you presume that your conscience or morality is better than that of your deity? > > Maybe if there is a god he’s evil and wants us to burn witches, torture heretics, stone homosexuals, kill our firstborn etc and all of that other insanity in Leviticus (Fairly sure that’s the section I mean, it’s been a long time since I picked up a copy of the “good book”). 1. The the text is a work by Man. They may have been inspired, or they may have been stark raving mad. It’s up to me to read the texts and see how they fit with my belief systems and way of life. 2. Hence the picking and choosing- the texts aren’t laws in stone or anything, they’re interpretations and essays and debates on topics. Some are easier to grok than others, others are more difficult. It’s up to me to determine what to do with it. 3. My conscience or morality was given by my Deity. Or maybe not, if there isn’t one- always have to consider that option. But if there was a deity, I doubt he’s going to follow me around judging my every action. I’ve been given access to world’s sum knowledge and I should try to figure out my way in life- whichever religion, pathway, belief system is best for me and allows me to live a healthy productive life, then that’s the way to go. Atheism would be a perfectly valid option in my choice to reaching God. As would an Agnostic that lives his life out and tries to do the best he can do. I feel no need in presuming that my beliefs, or knowledge system is superior to theirs and that either of us really knows how to get to God, or even if there ISN’T a God. If you live your life, knowing there was a kind and loving God, and that you had a chance at some magical afterlife (which I don’t really believe in- i think it’s a one shot deal, but YMMV), then that’s all good and well. However, if you had the flip side of that- that if you found out that there truly is no God and that there is NOTHING else besides this world and you had proof of that- if you would tell me that the life you would live would be completely different than the life you choose to live with 100% that there is a God? Well then, I personally think you’ve got some issues that need to be worked out in your own belief system. A person shouldn’t live for God, but they shouldn’t swing the opposite either- “oh there’s no God, guess I can do whatever I want- hurr hurr hurr”. It doesn’t fly that way. :shrug: These are just some of my thoughts, I can’t say they’re valid, can’t say they’re smarter than your beliefs, and can’t say that we won’t end up in the same place eventually. But if you can live a happy productive life without harming others, well why should i try to impinge on your happiness with my own interpretations and such? Don’t really see the point of that. Then again, I’ve always failed in ethics classes. Hated all of them, except for the Artistolean Golden mean or whatever it was. And as to your last question/statement: 4. I don’t quite use “the Good Book” as my only (or even top 10 probably) sources of knowledge. When it disagrees with something I’ve thought about, I look towards other books and such to find one that better makes sense to me. Like one of the first ones I rejected- the “You shall Hold No Gods above Me and such” line. That was just terrible there- so there may be other Gods? Alright, well why are you #1? That’s rather silly to assume you’re the end all be all choice, right? And all sorts of fun little questions I had growing up for my Lutheran chapel hours (Yay, being the minority in a Christian Private School- great education, and I got to learn about the beliefs that drive a majority of the world I live in. Hadn’t really been exposed to that stuff until the 2nd grade- def. made for an interesting view point). But in the end, yeah- if you’re bending over backwards for religion and you have no idea WHY you’re doing it- maybe you should consider the alternatives. Either Agnosticism, Atheism, or perhaps another belief system… :Shrug: but I’m probably alone in THAT belief. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/500 "2009-11-10T21:36:32Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I have to go by my conscience. If I read something in a sacred text and it doesn’t sit right with me, then I have no choice but to discard it. In other words, your morality is just as atheistic as mine. I’m definitely okay with that, but you realize that if there is a god out there who cares about people following his rules, he’d be just as pissed with you as he would be with me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=26)