# Der Trihs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150 "2009-11-03T08:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/501 "2009-11-10T21:44:21Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > …Dismissing someone as not worthy of your respect because of something they believe is no less bigoted than not respecting them because of the color of their skin, or where they were born, or their sexual preferences. Does this hold true if what they believe is that you are inferior because of the color of your skin, or because of where you were born, or because of your sexual preference? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/502 "2009-11-11T00:03:14Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > **Dt** hates things regarding religion that we should all hate. Equating this with the Robertson’s actions and pronouncements makes **you** the asshole. Sorry, that train ( **DT** hating things about religion) left years ago…pay attention. The new train ( **DT** just being hateful to all that are not lock-stepped with his views) is in the station looking for new passengers. I see you’ve made it to your seat in first class. My comment on his hatefulness doesn’t make me anything more or less than another person noticing his hatefulness. That is not blood you smell in the water, **Fantome**. Enjoy your train ride. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/503 "2009-11-11T00:16:40Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > I don’t have to consider anyone’s beliefs to be rational in order to respect their right to have them. That seems to be the major disconnect that I’m seeing here. Dismissing someone as not worthy of your respect because of something they believe is no less bigoted than not respecting them because of the color of their skin, or where they were born, or their sexual preferences. That’s silly. A person’s beliefs are a perfectly good reason to not respect them; those other reasons are not. Beliefs are central to what a person is. What reason _ **would** _ you accept for not respecting a person? And if your answer is that you should always respect a person, all that does is make respect valueless. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/504 "2009-11-11T00:35:54Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > People can be atheists and not be arrogant bigots. That’s what we’re all trying to say to you. At least half your posts are hateful rants, so much that you’ve developed a reputation for such. You are among a bunch of other atheists here, and even we can’t stand your style. What you mean “we”, white man? Take a count of the people defending DT vs. those attacking, and add me on the defending side. I just wish I could express my disdain for religion in general as eloquently as DT, Boyo Jim, Brian, Gustav and the rest, but I can’t so I mostly lurk. Besides, you Americans and Europeans live in places where Xians are somewhat restrained in their power-hunger by laws; try living, as I do,somewhere where the RCC has real political clout sometime and see what it’s like. I would wager that a lot of non-Catholic Xians would find themselves singing a different tune. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/505 "2009-11-11T00:36:51Z")
Hmm. There seems to be multiple arguments going on at once (or at least a lot of talking past people). Just so I can get a gauge here of where people stand on this, I’d like the folks in this thread to agree or disagree with the following statement, and explain why: _If more atheists treated the theists in their life the way **DT** treats them on this board, the world would be a better place._ ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/506 "2009-11-11T00:42:13Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > My comment on his hatefulness doesn’t make me anything more or less than another person noticing his hatefulness. Of course it does. By equating **DT** with people who believe in ridiculous things and are totally irrational and call for the death of others, doesn’t want gays to have the same rights as others, says that feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians, etc., it makes you a liar. A really, really bad liar. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/507 "2009-11-11T00:49:00Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > _If more atheists treated the theists in their life the way **DT** treats them on this board, the world would be a better place._ Oh, I’d love to see him try that-on the street, preferably, perhaps in front of a church or synagogue right as people are leaving. I.e. a message board provides cover that is lost in a direct interpersonal interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/508 "2009-11-11T00:57:08Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Hmm. There seems to be multiple arguments going on at once (or at least a lot of talking past people). Just so I can get a gauge here of where people stand on this, I’d like the folks in this thread to agree or disagree with the following statement, and explain why: > > _If more atheists treated the theists in their life the way **DT** treats them on this board, the world would be a better place._ Disagree. As I said earlier, if all you do is go after people and stereotype them, assuming the worst, and accusing them of being bigots due to their beliefs, yadda yadda yadda, who’s going to listen to you? (As for the whole atheist thing, I notice people are silent on his views when it comes to stereotyping people on the right.) ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/509 "2009-11-11T01:04:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > (As for the whole atheist thing, I notice people are silent on his views when it comes to stereotyping people on the right.) Yeah, it seems everyone is ducking that issue. They’re also silent on his taste in music. Cowards. Maybe you and **Leaper** should start new threads, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/510 "2009-11-11T01:20:10Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Maybe you and **Leaper** should start new threads, eh? I don’t see why. I am genuinely curious just how much **DT’s** defenders agree with his _positions_ versus his _behavior_, since even those degrees are all over the place. Those who disagree with him seem to be fairly clear and unified (although some are theists and some are not), and thus pretty easy to understand. Yes, **DT** may very well be right, but by my reading of this thread, relatively few have out and out said that they agree with the way he views and (more importantly) acts towards theists. I wanted to get that clarity. Of course, one barrier to that is that we have no idea how **DT** treats theists face to face IRL, and how he thinks other atheists should treat them. Granted, he believes that all theists (or Christians, anyway) hate him and would execute him given half a chance, but that’s certainly not any proof either way. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/511 "2009-11-11T01:48:17Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I don’t see why. Because this thread has gotten off topic enough without a poll taking place within it. > [@](#): > > I am genuinely curious just how much **DT’s** defenders agree with his _positions_ versus his _behavior_, > > ``` > ... > > ``` > > Of course, one barrier to that is that we have no idea how **DT** treats theists face to face IRL, and how he thinks other atheists should treat them. Then what behavior are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/512 "2009-11-11T01:52:26Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Because this thread has gotten off topic enough without a poll taking place within it. I guess that’s a reflection of the problem with this thread; it seems general enough that I don’t see how the original point doesn’t encompass everything so far. > [@](#): > > Then what behavior are you talking about? Sorry, I should’ve been more clear; I was talking about behavior online versus whether that same behavior is reflected IRL - whether atheists do (and should) “screen” friends and family based on their religious beliefs, and how they treat and speak to those with said beliefs. Hmm. Maybe you’re right; that might be an interesting thread on its own. Double hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Charogne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@Charogne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charogne)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/513 "2009-11-11T04:17:12Z")
If I interpret you correctly, John, Christians and Jews are cowards, who will only confront a differing viewpoint if supported by superior numbers? I’d hate to think that was the case, although I’ve seen individual situations that might support such an estimate. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/514 "2009-11-11T06:18:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > (As for the whole atheist thing, I notice people are silent on his views when it comes to stereotyping people on the right.) I answered this already, but to repeat - I agree with his stance on the RW too. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/515 "2009-11-11T09:28:24Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > If you live your life, knowing there was a kind and loving God, and that you had a chance at some magical afterlife (which I don’t really believe in- i think it’s a one shot deal, but YMMV), then that’s all good and well. However, if you had the flip side of that- that if you found out that there truly is no God and that there is NOTHING else besides this world and you had proof of that- if you would tell me that the life you would live would be completely different than the life you choose to live with 100% that there is a God? > Well then, I personally think you’ve got some issues that need to be worked out in your own belief system. A person shouldn’t live for God, but they shouldn’t swing the opposite either- “oh there’s no God, guess I can do whatever I want- hurr hurr hurr”. It doesn’t fly that way. > :shrug: I agree with much of your post, which is why I haven’t responded to each bit. I think you may have misinterpreted what I said though. I think I’m a more moral person becasue I’m an atheist than if I were a believer. The reason for this simply boils down to the fact that I try not to harm anyone through my actions. I am less likely to kill, because for me that’s it, once you’re dead it’s all over, so this principle guides me and makes me more rather than less moral. It seems to me that it’s easier to kill if you’re a believer (not all believers obviously), but there is the “kill 'em all and let god sort them out” school of thought. Also, I see your point about your conscience coming from your god, but what if it doesn’t and you are inadvertently crossing an invisible line? ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/516 "2009-11-11T09:37:18Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Sorry, I should’ve been more clear; I was talking about behavior online versus whether that same behavior is reflected IRL - whether atheists do (and should) “screen” friends and family based on their religious beliefs, and how they treat and speak to those with said beliefs. > > Hmm. Maybe you’re right; that might be an interesting thread on its own. Double hmm. Well, personally I try to be consistent on the internet and in real life. I, usually, try not to be rude unless provoked and don’t necessarily cut people of faith from my life. I think it’s a question of degree really, most religious people are not deranged nutters who want to see all of us atheist heretics burning for all eternity and it is possible to get on well with them and even have some interesting conversations on the subject of religion without falling out. I wouldn’t associate with anyone with extremeist (religious) views, but will happily befriend those with more moderate views unless they get preachy and judgemental. One the other hand, the majority of my close friends are atheists or agnostics. The main exceotion to this being my wife who is a christian. My kids are so far undecided, but get the chance to experience both points of view. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/517 "2009-11-11T12:20:12Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Hmm. There seems to be multiple arguments going on at once (or at least a lot of talking past people). Just so I can get a gauge here of where people stand on this, I’d like the folks in this thread to agree or disagree with the following statement, and explain why: > > _If more atheists treated the theists in their life the way **DT** treats them on this board, the world would be a better place._ No. But different medium and different context so the question is a pointless irrelevance. DT just forcibly argues his positions regarding religion and politics and does not shy away from taking things to their logical conclusion. If - as seems to be the case - the majority of christians in the USA are against SSM then yes - they are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/518 "2009-11-11T12:38:59Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > It seems to me that it’s easier to kill if you’re a believer (not all believers obviously), but there is the “kill 'em all and let god sort them out” school of thought. > > Also, I see your point about your conscience coming from your god, but what if it doesn’t and you are inadvertently crossing an invisible line? Yes, unfortunately, I do agree there is that thought sometimes. One reason I’m not so much a fan of extremism and the ideas harming someone in the name of God. Just not a fan of that- as I believe that’s a major human error in interpretations there. But YMMV. And if it doesn’t, well if there is a judging God and not a God that simple wanted me to be- then I’d hope he looks at my actions and saw I tried to do the best I could with what I had been given. If not, I will take full responsibilities for my actions and _mea culpa._ Then again, considering in Christianity I think the best I could have ever hoped for is Purgatory, I guess I’m used to the idea that this could be possible. But I’m thinking it doesn’t work that way. Only because it keeps me going, in the end, I’m the one in charge of my choices and actions. I’ll have to live with the consequences and when I’m dead- well what happens happens. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/519 "2009-11-11T12:46:55Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I readily admit that there is probably nothing that you would find to be a rational basis for anything I believe, but that has nothing to do with the fact that you are indeed a bigot. I don’t intend the word in the insulting sense, but rather in a descriptive one. Let’s review some of the definitions of the word, shall we? > > I feel this is a fair characterization of your posting history here on the topic of religion and politics (let’s not forget that we’re not just discussing theism vs. atheism here). I’m sure you disagree. I wonder if DRE Trihs isn’t feeling that Diests are bigoted towards him, or other Atheists, it could seem that way, I would think name calling either way could be thought of as bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/520 "2009-11-11T12:49:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So tell me, how has the meek and mild, soft and reasonable approach worked out so far for atheists over the last three thousand years? 1/ So tell me, I _know_ you know what an excluded middle is. I know you’ve read my posts which point out that this is what you are doing. I know you haven’t denied you are excluding the middle. Why then are you continuing to do it? What does it say that you must resort to a rhetorical fallacy so plain that were some woo attempting to use it on you you would laugh in their face? 2/ But to answer your question: relatively well. We live in one of the least religious times ever. Atheism is on the rise. It’s not as prevalent as you or I might like, but there are entire countries which are truly secular, and even if Americans don’t trust atheists sufficient to vote for them, there are more of them than ever there have been. Atheism is rising I would suggest because of the rise of science and Enlightenment philosophy and high levels of education. Please don’t try to tell me its rising because of atheists abusing theists. > [@Uzi](#): > > For a guy who claims it is better to use honey instead of vinegar you have accused me of spouting nonsense, of being an idiot, and unable to read English. So, should I do as you say, or do as you do? Oddly enough, I’m still listening. You know that post of mine earlier acknowledging the entertainment value of abusing the stupidity of opponents? Think about it for a bit. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nothing I do will win their trust. It’s not my rhetoric that makes them distrust me. Sorry to break it to you pal, but its _you_. I have very good religious friends. Heck, I suspect my wife of religious thoughts. I even talk to them about religion and make my views forcefully known. We’re still friends and I’m still married. And my wife is much less religious than she was when I met her. I’ll give you a hint: I never said “your religion is teh stupid and you must be dumb to follow it”. Well, not in so many words. Stop confusing the fact that you are disliked because you are obnoxious with some general principle that applies to everyone. It’s just sad, frankly. Further you go on about atheists being hated, but you have no evidence for it. The only way you can get there is by some pathetic bait and switch in which you start with some evidence about voting and marriage and trust and then say “and so they all hate us” and hope no one will notice the leap. In my experience a level of hatred so intense that you won’t even get a hearing if you are speaking sense but being diplomatic is rare. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=27)