# Der Trihs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150 "2009-11-03T08:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/561 "2009-11-12T14:40:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Being a pain in the ass. If that was as far as fanatical _religionists_ went, there wouldn’t be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/562 "2009-11-12T14:49:43Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Being a pain in the ass. Kind of interesting just how low the standards are for “fanaticism” for atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/563 "2009-11-12T14:57:51Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not if there’s a Taser handy.Now you’re talking shit about the Big Guy. Expect thunderbolts, or maybe to live forever as an increasingly decrepit and petulant old man. > > One thing about the ancient Greeks, they had great examples of gods who screw up.Your broad brush is really out of whack today. > > Besides, you quoted my 😃 out of context. > > Thunderbolts for you too. Oops, I’ll see if my coffee is ready. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/564 "2009-11-12T16:11:17Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It goes both ways. Name calling never solved anything,but does bring about hostility. I thought Christians were supposed to love their enimies,doesn’t sound too Christian to call people a–h—'s etc. because people disagree with their beliefs. Aren’t they supposed to be loving and kind. Didn’t Jesus say what defiles a man comes from his mouth, not what is put into it? It does go both ways, and I said earlier to (I think) **Bryan Ekers** , I’ll work on that. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/565 "2009-11-12T16:34:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You make it sound like i’m being unreasonable or something. Sorry it came off that way as that wasn’t my intention. I was simply providing a link to the only official records that exists on the issue. On a personal note, I am simply not vested in the truthfulness of the quote simply because there are myriad of others that can be easily sourced to any number of prominent American public figures. Besides, as you note in your analysis of the exchange, it is not hard to gage that Bush Sr. had a chip on his shoulder vis-a-vis atheism. As per the President’s Council: > [@](#): > > **(George Bush)neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily supported by the government** How is that remotely relevant to what was asked of him (a retraction)? You say it’s weaseling – which it is – but I also interpret it as a further dig at atheism. I mean what is is this “unnecessary support” he speaks of when it is a simple matter of equality? Anyway, I agree with your conclusion that the comments themselves are really not verifiable, so they shouldn’t be brought up as fact in debate. But as I said, there are plenty of others that are. [**To wit**](http://www.purgatorius.org/Archives/Jul-Sep%20Pages/U.S.%20Fundamentalism.html): > [@George W. Bush](#): > > **I believe God wants me to be president…** > [@Lieutenant General William Boykin](#): > > **My God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol** > [@John Ashcroft](#): > > **Unique among the nations, America recognized the source of our character as being godly and eternal, not being civic and temporal. And because we have understood that our source is eternal, America has been different. We have no king but Jesus** > [@John Ashcroft](#): > > **Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him. Christianity is a faith in which God sends his son to die for you** > [@Tom DeLay](#): > > **Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of ‘Where did I come from?’ ‘Why am I here?’ ‘Where am I going?’ ‘Does life have any meaningful purpose?’ Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world – only Christianity** > [@Pat Robertson](#): > > **There will never be world peace until God’s house and God’s people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world** > [@Pat Buchanan](#): > > **Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free** And on and on and on. So I don’t think it is a spurious claim to say that there are quite a number of American public figures that have some very wacky ideas based on a mixture of mythology and ideology. Precisely what your Constitution supposedly protects against. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/566 "2009-11-12T16:58:49Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**To wit**](http://www.purgatorius.org/Archives/Jul-Sep%20Pages/U.S.%20Fundamentalism.html): > > > [@George W. Bush](#): > > > > I believe God wants me to be president… Do you have a real, first-hand cite for this? Since we know that the MSM is not to be trusted when they report what other people say about George Bush… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/567 "2009-11-12T19:02:03Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Of course it does. By equating **DT** with people who believe in ridiculous things and are totally irrational and call for the death of others, doesn’t want gays to have the same rights as others, says that feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians, etc., it makes you a liar. A really, really bad liar. Pfffft. Man, you are really out to lunch. Again, you keep defending **DT** with his viewpoints, which I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH. Many other posters here have the same viewpoints, but are more sincere and convincing when taking a steady and logical path on expressing their views WITHOUT spewing the vinegary rhetoric that **DT** is well known for. I expressed here earlier that **DT** ’s hate will not serve him well and compared him to some religious leaders who DO THE SAME EXACT THING with their broad-brushing drivel. Guess what? Those clowns also fail in convincing me because of their lack of sincerity and their vinegary rhetoric, hence lack of respect. I find it just as hateful when religious leaders (and there are quite a few of them) who feel that their hatred is justified in their faith which I find even more repulsive. **DT** is right there among them except he his anger is justified in his absence of faith, hence the comparison. Again, FTR…taken from the OP itself… [QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] **Der Trihs** **Der Tris** , I’m not a religious man. I haven’t been to church in years. But one thing I do know is that hate isn’t good. You don’t seem to do anything but hate when it comes to religion. That ain’t healthy. The overly religious hate, can’t you at least try to be a better person than they are? It’s not that hard. Please, just show some tolerance of how other human beings view the world. Drop the hate. You’ll live longer. [/QUOTE] …is EXACTLY what I am talking about and completely concur with. Stop confusing **DT’s** message with **DT’s** hate. A liar? A really, really bad liar? No. It does make you a person who can’t comprehend…a really, really bad comprehender. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/568 "2009-11-12T19:13:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a real, first-hand cite for this? > > Since we know that the MSM is not to be trusted when they report what other people say about George Bush… > > Regards, > Shodan **RegardsShodan** , First hand testimony good enough for you? MEET THE PRESS [**Transcript for Nov. 28**](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6601018/) > [@](#): > > \*\*MR. RUSSERT: Reverend Land, The Washington Post reported this: “`I believe God wants me to be president,'” the Rev. Richard Land, head of the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, quoted George Bush as saying." > > When did George Bush tell you that? > > DR. RICHARD LAND: Well, he told me that–he told a group of us that the day he was inaugurated for his second term as governor of the state in 1999. But once again, like people in The Washington Post often do, they truncated the quote. What he said was–and it was right after he came back from that service at the Methodist Church where the Methodist pastor had been preaching about God’s call on your life. And he said, “I believe God wants me to be president, but if that doesn’t happen, that’s OK. I’m loved at home, and that’s more important. I’ve seen the presidency up close and personal, and I know it’s a sacrifice, not a reward. And I don’t need it for personal gratification.”\*\* Now, apologist such as yourself and Dr Land can play with the context all you’d like and come to all sorts of justifications – just like you do with your Holy Book. But turning into a pretzel won’t change the fact that indeed, that’s what he thought; that he had a direct line to your/his personal God and could interpret his wishes. Period. Of course, that’s not wacky at all in your world. Whatever, **~Red** ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/569 "2009-11-12T19:18:23Z")
What if I can prove the existance of the Antichrist? Charismatic, goodlooking, charming, etc. But don’t let her looks fool you – she is pure evil!!! [Behold!!!](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/Kitties/lucilu.jpg) ETA: [sub]Yeticus Rex, may I kiss you?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/570 "2009-11-12T19:21:39Z")
> [@Reverend Land](#): > > I’ve seen the presidency up close and personal, and I know it’s a sacrifice, not a reward. I felt that way about Richard Nixon. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > [Behold!!!](http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/sarah-palin-1.jpg) (fixed your link) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/571 "2009-11-12T19:35:46Z")
Now, I’ll give that this one is harder to pin down, but [**Haaretz**](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310788&contrassID=2) does attribute the quote to W as per Mahmoud Abbas’ account of the meeting: > [@George W Bush](#): > > **God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did…** Might not be usable for strict debate as per **mhendo’s** conclusion of George Sr’s attribution, but really, is it that hard to believe that comes from a guy that from the start called for a [**Crusade**](http://www.seattlepi.com/national/39266_crusade18.shtml) (this one is not just verifiable, but searchable on this very Board, where I and many others pointed out what a colossal fuck-up that had been) against the “evildoers”? It “only” cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives what with dittoheads such as yourself behind him all the way. Apologize away. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/572 "2009-11-12T19:38:16Z")
Good shot, but mine is even named Luci = Lucifer!!! Think about it!!! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/573 "2009-11-13T03:31:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And you give your location as Australia. Judging from your posts you have no real understanding about just how religious America is. Have you ever worried that one of those friends of yours would key your car if he so much as found out you were an atheist? Has your equivalent of a President ever said he doesn’t think that atheists deserve to be considered citizens? FTR, the provenance of the 1989 Bush Sr. quote is in dispute, though I have argued that the evidence favors it in GQ. (John Mace demurred.) > [@](#): > > Sometimes, towards some people and some things I am hostile; sometimes I am not. Claiming that I am all the time; that is hyperbole. So is claiming that I’m “spewing bullshit”, when in fact I’m either expressing my opinion or simply pointing out unpopular truths. Der. I haven’t been in GD for a while, but when I was, I’d say that the great majority of your posts were curt, at best. The more thoughtful ones were striking, for that reason. Others imply that you are more civil in other forums; I’ll take them at their word. If you don’t see how the great majority of your GD posts are abrasive (and recall that neither atheism nor anti-militarism bends me out of shape) then you might consider a rethink, yes? > [@](#): > > Most people who hate me don’t even know I exist and never will; they hate me because of what I believe, not because of anything I’ve said much less done. I don’t suck up to their fantasy, so I’m a monster to them. This really is misguided. Many theists do viscerally distrust atheists: Bush Sr. gives a good presentation of this position. But it’s not defensive in nature. It’s entirely rational: atheists don’t struggle under the burden of divine punishment so it follows that they would be less moral than theists. This argument is particularly persuasive for those whose moral framework is entirely grounded upon the presumption of an afterlife run by a Magistrate. Empirical evidence for this contention is lacking, and I don’t share those conclusions. But I contend that this perspective underlies Bush Sr.'s 1989 remarks more than blind hatred, for the latter conflicts with the US’s ecumenical tradition. Incidentally, Bush Jr. has made bland tolerant remarks regarding atheists, and the web has given them a wider platform besides. The nonbeliever Karl Rove served as #3 in Bush admin for a while without penalty. So this evidence is somewhat dated. It does however, exemplify **Der** ’s tendency to overstate matters. This isn’t just a dig, since I’m talking about a recurring pattern. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/574 "2009-11-13T04:06:44Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Incidentally, Bush Jr. has made bland tolerant remarks regarding atheists, and the web has given them a wider platform besides. The nonbeliever Karl Rove served as #3 in Bush admin for a while without penalty. So this evidence is somewhat dated. Er no. He was an advisor, never a cabinet member. And I don’t think we have any sort of ranking about order of “in an admin” in the US - if anything, Speaker of the House is the #3 ranking official by virtue of being 2nd in line of succession. Just FYI. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/575 "2009-11-13T04:10:50Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, what is the fanatical atheist’s preferred method of dealing with those that don’t ‘believe’ as they do? > Burning at the stake? No, that’s a Christian thing. > Stoning? Nope, that’s Islam and Judaism. > Cutting off arms, legs, heads? Well, pretty much all of them. > Making believers (and the wishy washy) uncomfortable on bulletin boards? Yep, there it is. Plenty of message boards in China and the Soviet Union … ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/576 "2009-11-13T05:32:20Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Plenty of message boards in China and the Soviet Union … And if China and the Soviet Union (now Russia, btw) were founded on atheism rather than communism (their religion) you’d have the beginnings of an argument. Otherwise, not so much. [QUOTE=RedFury] Now, apologist such as yourself and Dr Land can play with the context all you’d like and come to all sorts of justifications – just like you do with your Holy Book. But turning into a pretzel won’t change the fact that indeed, that’s what he thought; that he had a direct line to your/his personal God and could interpret his wishes. [/QUOTE] If he had a direct line to the truth then why did he say that if he lost he’d accept it? As statements from believers go, this wasn’t much to get upset over. It isn’t any different than stating, “I believe that god has a plan for me, and this is what I think it is, but if it isn’t then I’ll do my best to carry on”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/577 "2009-11-13T08:30:18Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Er no. > > He was an advisor, never a cabinet member. And I don’t think we have any sort of ranking about order of “in an admin” in the US - if anything, Speaker of the House is the #3 ranking official by virtue of being 2nd in line of succession. > > Just FYI. _De jure_, you might have a point. _De facto_, Karl Rove had far more influence over the Bush administration’s domestic policy than any departmental head or member of congress. (I’ll backpeddle a bit by excluding foreign policy from consideration, where Rove’s interest was tangential.) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/578 "2009-11-13T08:48:33Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But I still think that we have nowhere near enough evidence to really know whether or not this exchange ever took place. For those interested: 2003 thread: [Did Bush Sr. once state that Athiests should not be considered patriots nor citizens?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=185474) 2005 three page thread in GQ… with near train wreck! [George H W Bush and atheists](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=336611). ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/579 "2009-11-13T11:44:32Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > **And if China and the Soviet Union (now Russia, btw) were founded on atheism rather than communism (their religion) you’d have the beginnings of an argument. Otherwise, not so much.** > If he had a direct line to the truth then why did he say that if he lost he’d accept it? As statements from believers go, this wasn’t much to get upset over. It isn’t any different than stating, “I believe that god has a plan for me, and this is what I think it is, but if it isn’t then I’ll do my best to carry on”. (my bolding) So, you’re down to a “no true Scotsman” argument. Atheistic societies, that were both openly atheistic and brutally anti-religious are not ahteistic because they make modern atheists uncomfortable. “Communism was their religion” is as valid as “Atheism is a religion” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/580 "2009-11-13T12:07:27Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > First hand testimony good enough for you? Actually, this is second hand - the media is reporting that someone told them that Bush said it five years after the fact. I was hoping for a real cite - got one? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=30)