# Der Trihs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150 "2009-11-03T08:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/581 "2009-11-13T12:31:09Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > (my bolding) > So, you’re down to a “no true Scotsman” argument. > Atheistic societies, that were both openly atheistic and brutally anti-religious are not ahteistic because they make modern atheists uncomfortable. “Communism was their religion” is as valid as “Atheism is a religion” They suppressed religion because it conflicted with their ‘religion’ which was communism. Their belief was communism. And like most believers, anything that conflicted with that belief was at the least to be distrusted (as pointed out in this thread), if not actively fought against and destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/582 "2009-11-13T12:49:25Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > (my bolding) > So, you’re down to a “no true Scotsman” argument. > Atheistic societies, that were both openly atheistic and brutally anti-religious are not ahteistic because they make modern atheists uncomfortable. “Communism was their religion” is as valid as “Atheism is a religion” Nonsense, on multiple levels. First; Communism is a belief system, atheism is not. The two are not comparable; you might as well equate Christianity with disbelief in Zeus. By your logic, 9-11 is proof of the evil of Christianity because it was committed by unbelievers in Zeus, just like Christians. Second; as pointed out they were anti-religious because they were anti-competition; no different that Christians or Muslims persecuting unbelievers. Third, why is it Communism, and Communism alone that is your example of evil atheism? Most atheists aren’t Communists; if the problem is atheism and not Communism, where are your non-Communist examples of the Evils of Atheism? If I want to bring up examples of the evils of theism, I don’t need to restrict myself to one sect. You do need to restrict yourself to Communism, because they behaved the way they did because they were Communists. Not atheists. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/583 "2009-11-13T15:43:32Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > _De jure_, you might have a point. _De facto_, Karl Rove had far more influence over the Bush administration’s domestic policy than any departmental head or member of congress. (I’ll backpeddle a bit by excluding foreign policy from consideration, where Rove’s interest was tangential.) Agreed, but maybe the distinction was not clear to the OP, who is not in the US. So there is value in clearing it up for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/584 "2009-11-13T16:01:55Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > They suppressed religion because it conflicted with their ‘religion’ which was communism. Their belief was communism. And like most believers, anything that conflicted with that belief was at the least to be distrusted (as pointed out in this thread), if not actively fought against and destroyed. The problem is that no-one is an atheist _alone_. Atheism is a description of a lack of belief. But everyone has beliefs - be they ethnic, cultural, nationalistic or political. Being atheist, as it turns out, is no guarantee of not being attracted to these other types of belief. The issue here is that being “atheist” merely insulates one from harmful _religious_ beliefs. It does not insulate one from other forms of harmful belief; and in point of fact, the most harmful beliefs of the last century have not been religious. To the extent that being religious insulates one from being attracted to Communism, it has over the last century been _better for you_ than being atheist, which insulates you from being a fundamentalist; as over the last century, Communism has done more harm, objectively speaking, than fundamentalism. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/585 "2009-11-13T16:11:50Z")
On what basis do you reach _that_ conclusion? The Nazis and Italian fascists both wrapped themselves in the trappings of Christianity; if we’re blaming communism on atheism we have to blame fascism on theism. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/586 "2009-11-13T16:22:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > been _better for you_ than being atheist, which insulates you from being a fundamentalist; as over the last century, Communism has done more harm, objectively speaking, than fundamentalism. Communism is no more a set of beliefs than Capitalism is, and neither is a “religion”, they are sets of economic principles at a community level. But it is pretty telling that a theist would even suggest that being #2 “objectively” in some mythical “level of harm done in the last 100 years” is a result enough to excuse the harm done at all. Is that the theistic strategy? To inflict harm, but not so much that people would say we are the worst example? Hmmm, I am not theist, but what religion teaches anything along those lines? Can any theists here tell me? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/587 "2009-11-13T16:26:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > On what basis do you reach _that_ conclusion? The Nazis and Italian fascists both wrapped themselves in the trappings of Christianity; if we’re blaming communism on atheism we have to blame fascism on theism. They did? My impression was that the Nazis were quite ambivalent about Christianity, to the extent of some promoting semi-seriously “germanic paganism”. I was not aware that they “wrapped themselves in the trappings of Christianity”; more like most Nazis (as were most Germans) happened to be from a Christian background, and most of them never totally repudiated it. The incompatibility of Christianity and Nazism did not go unremarked at the time. Please note I’m not “blaming Communism on Atheism”. What I’m saying is that atheism is no defense against harmful beliefs such as Communism, which is a very different thing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/588 "2009-11-13T16:28:05Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Communism is no more a set of beliefs than Capitalism is, and neither is a “religion”, they are sets of economic principles at a community level. > > But it is pretty telling that a theist would even suggest that being #2 “objectively” in some mythical “level of harm done in the last 100 years” is a result enough to excuse the harm done at all. > > Is that the theistic strategy? To inflict harm, but not so much that people would say we are the worst example? Hmmm, I am not theist, but what religion teaches anything along those lines? Can any theists here tell me? I’m not a theist. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/589 "2009-11-13T16:36:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not a theist. Then why are you advancing the “..but there is another group worse than use, therefore we are not so bad” argument? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/590 "2009-11-13T16:41:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Please note I’m not “blaming Communism on Atheism”. What I’m saying is that atheism is no defense against harmful beliefs such as Communism, which is a very different thing. I think the point here is that (certain) religious beliefs may be harmful in and of themselves. You are simply saying that atheism may render one more open to certain non-intrinsic-to-atheism harmful beliefs. Not quite the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/591 "2009-11-13T16:41:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Please note I’m not “blaming Communism on Atheism”. What I’m saying is that atheism is no defense against harmful beliefs such as Communism, which is a very different thing. Atheism itself may not be, but critical and rational thinking certainly is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/592 "2009-11-13T16:53:39Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Then why are you advancing the “..but there is another group worse than use, therefore we are not so bad” argument? I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/593 "2009-11-13T16:56:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think the point here is that (certain) religious beliefs may be harmful in and of themselves. You are simply saying that atheism may render one more open to certain non-intrinsic-to-atheism harmful beliefs. > > Not quite the same thing. Agreed. Atheism is not harmful in and of itself. Certain religious beliefs (though not all) are harmful in and of themselves. Looked at from a purely utilitarian point of view, one could regard a _certain amount_ of traditional religion as a valuable “inoculation” against other, more harmful beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/594 "2009-11-13T16:58:23Z")
One could also regard _a certain amount_ of traditional religion as a stagnant pond, which every now and then produces a huge cloud of mosquitoes carrying malaria. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/595 "2009-11-13T17:14:38Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Atheism itself may not be, but critical and rational thinking certainly is. Absolutely. The concern is that, historically speaking, the two are not seemingly tightly correlated. Atheists have, based on historical evidence, no greater defense against being carried away by harmful “science-y” beliefs (communism, eugenics, some sorts of nationalism/racism, etc.) than non-atheists. The reason is clear enough: in and of itself atheism does not, of course, prescribe any particular theory of social good: it is a mere lack of belief in deities. However, people cannot act without some sort of beliefs, philosophies or theories of social good. While in a perfect world an atheist would be free to construct a set of beliefs based on critical and rational thinking, and no doubt some do, in reality it would appear from historical evidence that the removal of traditional ethical certainties provided by religion (as irrational as they are) leaves many exposed to being swept up by mass movements which are no more rational. The mechanism is through social isolation and alienation. I recommend as a study of this Eric Hoffer’s _The True Believer_ - an oldie but goodie: > **[The True Believer: Hoffer, Eric: 9780060916121: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/True-Believer-Eric-Hoffer/dp/0060916125)** > > The True Believer \[Hoffer, Eric\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The True Believer ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/596 "2009-11-13T17:36:16Z")
You are confusing cause and effect. The people of the former Soviet states were no less religious than anyone else; it was the removal of the traditional power structure that left them vulnerable to the new mass delusion of communism. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/597 "2009-11-13T17:55:02Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > (fixed your link) [Moderating] Please don’t change another poster’s text inside a quote box, even when the “text” is hyperlink. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/598 "2009-11-13T17:56:41Z")
Huh? People do that all the time - fix quoted links - without a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/599 "2009-11-13T18:08:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Huh? People do that all the time - fix quoted links - without a warning. He didn’t fix the link - he changed it from a picture of a cat to a picture of Sarah Palin. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/600 "2009-11-13T18:22:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not. Then what precisely did you mean by [QUOTE=Malthus] To the extent that being religious insulates one from being attracted to Communism, it has over the last century been better for you than being atheist, which insulates you from being a fundamentalist; as over the last century, Communism has done more harm, objectively speaking, than fundamentalism. [/QUOTE] if not to dismiss the level of harm of “fundamentalism” relative to “Communism”. Also wonder how you account for the damage in the 18.5 centuries or so of “fundamentalism” before there was “communism”? Because, come on, the best argument you have in favor of “fundamentalism” is to go on a red-baiting trip? Really? Hey! Look over there! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=31)