# Der Trihs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150 "2009-11-03T08:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/601 "2009-11-13T18:24:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > They did? My impression was that the Nazis were quite ambivalent about Christianity, to the extent of some promoting semi-seriously “germanic paganism”. I was not aware that they “wrapped themselves in the trappings of Christianity”; more like most Nazis (as were most Germans) happened to be from a Christian background, and most of them never totally repudiated it. The incompatibility of Christianity and Nazism did not go unremarked at the time. > > Please note I’m not “blaming Communism on Atheism”. What I’m saying is that atheism is no defense against harmful beliefs such as Communism, which is a very different thing. Spanish Fascism, while benign compared to its German counterpart, was most definitely steeped in Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/602 "2009-11-13T18:33:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > He didn’t fix the link - he changed it from a picture of a cat to a picture of Sarah Palin. Oh, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/603 "2009-11-13T19:00:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You are confusing cause and effect. The people of the former Soviet states were no less religious than anyone else; it was the removal of the traditional power structure that left them vulnerable to the new mass delusion of communism. I am refering, not to the mass of people imposed on, but rather to those who embraced the new movement willingly. It is often forgotten that Communism was extremely popular among intellectuals (and remained so in the West right through the 1930s) because it offered a seemingly ‘rational’ utopian approach. Without the enthusiastic support of _some_ true believers, the movement could never have succeded (though of course many of them were later put up against the wall under Stalin’s show trials). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/604 "2009-11-13T19:10:05Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Then what precisely did you mean by > > if not to dismiss the level of harm of “fundamentalism” relative to “Communism”. > > Also wonder how you account for the damage in the 18.5 centuries or so of “fundamentalism” before there was “communism”? > > Because, come on, the best argument you have in favor of “fundamentalism” is to go on a red-baiting trip? Really? Hey! Look over there! Over the last century, Communism has done, objectively speaking, more damage to humanity than fundamentalism. I was not aware that pointing this out made me in favour of fundamentalism. On the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/605 "2009-11-13T19:14:16Z")
> [@Martha\_Medea](#): > > Spanish Fascism, while benign compared to its German counterpart, was most definitely steeped in Catholicism. True enough. German fascism was much more ambivalent about the issue, with certain sections touting a new paganism. Dunno how seriously any of them took it though. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/606 "2009-11-13T21:20:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > They suppressed religion because it conflicted with their ‘religion’ which was communism. Their belief was communism. And like most believers, anything that conflicted with that belief was at the least to be distrusted (as pointed out in this thread), if not actively fought against and destroyed. So, a bunch of atheists kill lots of people defending an atheistic system (not that atheism was the main characterisitc), but your scare quotes solve the problem. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense, on multiple levels. First; Communism is a belief system, atheism is not. The two are not comparable; you might as well equate Christianity with disbelief in Zeus. By your logic, 9-11 is proof of the evil of Christianity because it was committed by unbelievers in Zeus, just like Christians. > > Second; as pointed out they were anti-religious because they were anti-competition; no different that Christians or Muslims persecuting unbelievers. > > Third, why is it Communism, and Communism alone that is your example of evil atheism? Most atheists aren’t Communists; if the problem is atheism and not Communism, where are your non-Communist examples of the Evils of Atheism? If I want to bring up examples of the evils of theism, I don’t need to restrict myself to one sect. You do need to restrict yourself to Communism, because they behaved the way they did because they were Communists. Not atheists. By nonsense you mean “you’re perfectly right”? first: Communism is a political system, not a belief system, sorry to tell you. You 9/11 story is too pitiful. Second: …because they were beleivers in many cases. The communism-is-a-religion tale is a nice rationalisation to avoid the clear facts of history; I’m sure it helps you sleep at night because “no true atheist” ever does anything wrong. Third: Why? Are you that giganticly ignorant of history? Because atheism as the philosophy/outlook of people running a government has only been here for a very short while, whereas religion is as old as dirt. Is the period of France’s history between 1789 and 1799 good enough? Another bunch of atheistic guys killing right and left. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/607 "2009-11-13T21:54:20Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, a bunch of atheists kill lots of people defending an atheistic system (not that atheism was the main characterisitc), but your scare quotes solve the problem. Defending an atheistic system? Try removing competition. You think the only organizations they went after were religious? > [@](#): > > Third: Why? Are you that giganticly ignorant of history? Because atheism as the philosophy/outlook of people running a government has only been here for a very short while, whereas religion is as old as dirt. > Is the period of France’s history between 1789 and 1799 good enough? Another bunch of atheistic guys killing right and left. You have got to be kidding me. The French Revolution was atheists killing in the name of atheism? That is the most ignorant bullshit I’ve seen on here in a while, and that’s saying something. Countless abuses by those in power, numerous wars bankrupting the country, rising inflation, famine, and you think it was them dern atheists. You are in serious need of a clue, go read a book. And your ‘atheism is new, religion is old’ argument doesn’t cut it. First you say it’s new, then you claim atheist abuse from centuries ago. Try again: non-communist evil atheist examples. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/608 "2009-11-13T22:00:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > By nonsense you mean “you’re perfectly right”? > first: Communism is a political system, not a belief system, sorry to tell you. When power is involved, the difference between belief and politics pretty much vanishes. I have to figure communism and religion have a huge amount of overlap in their application, with the only major difference being their rituals and symbols. One worships an unattainable God, the other an unattainable worker’s paradise… no big diff. I guess an atheist is someone who is indifferent to theism’s potential as a power structure (as well as everything else about it), but he could get caught up easily enough in something similar, like communism. Or he could be smart about it and pick something a bit less destructive, like capitalism/democracy, which works fairly well as political/economic systems go. Anyway, I’m an atheist who has no difficulty spotting the flaws in communism, as well as its similarities to religion. Fortunately, it’s not an either-or situation and I can reject both. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/609 "2009-11-13T22:14:21Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Defending an atheistic system? Try removing competition. You think the only organizations they went after were religious? > You have got to be kidding me. The French Revolution was atheists killing in the name of atheism? That is the most ignorant bullshit I’ve seen on here in a while, and that’s saying something. Countless abuses by those in power, numerous wars bankrupting the country, rising inflation, famine, and you think it was them dern atheists. You are in serious need of a clue, go read a book. > > And your ‘atheism is new, religion is old’ argument doesn’t cut it. First you say it’s new, then you claim atheist abuse from centuries ago. Try again: non-communist evil atheist examples. Communism was atheistic, that is a fact. Of course they went for others. The French revolution was atheistic and strongly anti catholic. Denying it is the little story you tell you teddy bear. Reading comprehension, child, reading comprehension. I said that **atheism as the philosophy of those in power** was new compared to religion. In western culture you cannot find people in power being openly atheistic before the French revolution. Judaism is at least 5000 years old the French recolution was 220 years ago. You DO get the difference in time, on’t you? Since atheists have only been in power for a (historically) short period, you can only analyse atheism-in-power during that period. > **[State atheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism)** > > State atheism is the incorporation of hard atheism or non-theism into political regimes. It is considered the opposite of theocracy and may also refer to large-scale secularization attempts by governments. To some extent, it is a religion-state relationship that is usually ideologically linked to irreligion and the promotion of irreligion or atheism. State atheism may refer to a government's promotion of anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in al The majorit... [http://www.atheists.org/The\_Enlightenment,\_Freemasonry,\_and\_The\_Illuminati](http://www.atheists.org/The_Enlightenment,_Freemasonry,_and_The_Illuminati) [http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2008/01/atheism-and-violence](http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2008/01/atheism-and-violence) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/610 "2009-11-13T22:23:35Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Communism was atheistic, that is a fact. Sure it was - it had no use for religious beliefs though in practice it was a lot _like_ a religious belief. I don’t see the implied corollary that all atheists are communist, though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/611 "2009-11-13T22:29:39Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, a bunch of atheists kill lots of people defending an atheistic system (not that atheism was the main characterisitc), but your scare quotes solve the problem. They spoke Russian too. Clearly they killed all those people because speaking Russian makes you evil. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > By nonsense you mean “you’re perfectly right”? No, by “nonsense” I mean “nonsense”. You are spouting an old and dishonest argument attempting to equate atheism and Communism and the French Revolution, because that’s all you have. As opposed to people speaking against religion, who can’t avoid seeing religion doing evil every day, everywhere. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > first: Communism is a political system, not a belief system, sorry to tell you. You 9/11 story is too pitiful. Garbage again. Communism is a system of belief about how the world works and should be run, based on faith rather than evidence; just like Christianity. And my 9-11 story is a quite literal comparison of what you are doing; trying to pretend that a single neutral belief shared by many other people than Communists was to blame. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The communism-is-a-religion tale is a nice rationalisation to avoid the clear facts of history; I’m sure it helps you sleep at night because “no true atheist” ever does anything wrong. Something i never said. Atheism is morally neutral; it’s you who are trying to claim that atheism has a moral value, an evil one. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Third: Why? Are you that giganticly ignorant of history? Because atheism as the philosophy/outlook of people running a government has only been here for a very short while, whereas religion is as old as dirt. > Is the period of France’s history between 1789 and 1799 good enough? Another bunch of atheistic guys killing right and left. My; another bunch of fanatics doing what fanatics do. Surprise, surprise they kill people. As opposed to the religious, who kill and oppress _ **without** _ being fanatic. And again, the French revolutionaries were hardly just atheists; they had quite a few other motives for what they did. You keep trying to blame atheism, when the simple fact is atheism can’t drive you to do anything. It’s a single belief, and completely neutral. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Since atheists have only been in power for a (historically) short period, you can only analyse atheism-in-power during that period. So…where are the death camps in present day Europe, where lack of religion is common? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/612 "2009-11-13T22:41:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They spoke Russian too. Clearly they killed all those people because speaking Russian makes you evil. > > No, by “nonsense” I mean “nonsense”. You are spouting an old and dishonest argument attempting to equate atheism and Communism and the French Revolution, because that’s all you have. As opposed to people speaking against religion, who can’t avoid seeing religion doing evil every day, everywhere. > > Garbage again. Communism is a system of belief about how the world works and should be run, based on faith rather than evidence; just like Christianity. And my 9-11 story is a quite literal comparison of what you are doing; trying to pretend that a single neutral belief shared by many other people than Communists was to blame. > > Something i never said. Atheism is morally neutral; it’s you who are trying to claim that atheism has a moral value, an evil one. > > My; another bunch of fanatics doing what fanatics do. Surprise, surprise they kill people. As opposed to the religious, who kill and oppress _ **without** _ being fanatic. And again, the French revolutionaries were hardly just atheists; they had quite a few other motives for what they did. > > You keep trying to blame atheism, when the simple fact is atheism can’t drive you to do anything. It’s a single belief, and completely neutral. > So…where are the death camps in present day Europe, where lack of religion is common? So, atheism doesn’t make you do anything? Even good stuff? The whole “morally neutral” stuff is in complete and direct clash with your moralising views on the Dope. I also see that the moment two atheist get together to do something they magically stop being atheist, they are fanatics, nice kindergarten-level dodge. Your last question shows how difficult it is to put your head in the sand. Any openly atheistic parties in power? Didn’t think so. You keep trying to escape by ignoring the “in power (to do what they want)” part of my idea; reality is too hard to handle. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/613 "2009-11-13T22:44:53Z")
Hey, Dio, you wanna do something tonight? Something fanatical? Like… bowling or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/614 "2009-11-13T23:09:02Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, atheism doesn’t make you do anything? Even good stuff? The whole “morally neutral” stuff is in complete and direct clash with your moralising views on the Dope. I submit that this is not necessarily anything to do with atheism as a driving force, but rather with religion as something to be spoken out again, at least in **Der Trihs** ’ eyes. Anyway, I came across [this news story](http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/Godless-Billboard-Moved-After-Threats/W0iGN9STXUW0m6VF2g2Xeg.cspx?234) and thought of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/615 "2009-11-13T23:24:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > He didn’t fix the link - he changed it from a picture of a cat to a picture of Sarah Palin. Yes, that was the issue. Fixing a broken link is fine. Changing it so it links to something else entirely is effectively the same as changing the quoted text to something the original poster didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/616 "2009-11-13T23:56:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey, Dio, you wanna do something tonight? Something fanatical? Like… bowling or something? So long as there is no singing I won’t call my jesuit-ninja-monks to retaliate ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/617 "2009-11-14T00:14:08Z")
Yeah, that’s hilarious, but communism and religion really are quite a lot alike when they get a taste of power. Imagine talking to an official of a medieval religious power structure or one of a communist power structure. You’d find they were both dedicated to some ideal that wasn’t actually attainable, but nevertheless in its pursuit they were eager to root out perceived traitors (be they “heretics” or “counter-revolutionaries/Czarists”). Calling communism a religion is a bit of a stretch, but it’s not entirely incorrect. It’s safe to say that both, in the practice of power, tend toward hierarchical structures that are intolerant of competing forms. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/618 "2009-11-14T00:14:35Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > It is hard to believe, because atheism isn’t a “view”. We didn’t just pick our horse at random like believers, our side has huge amounts of actual evidence. For an atheist, respecting a theist is like respecting something like a conspiracy nut. If you like the guy you ignore his rants, and nod politely waiting for him to finish. “Yes, I understand you think Obama was born in Kenya. Personally I kno… I mean I think… No no (oh god, he’s gonna start ranting) ok, let’s just agree to disagree. Hey how about this weather eh?” > > You may even geniunely respect the person if he’s smart in other areas, but it’s impossible to respect his crazy religious views. Religious people don’t seem to understand this, because they assume we chose our “belief” like they did. > > His atheist friend does not respect his views. He’s faking. Not necessarily true. I’m an atheist, and I respect my friends’ religious beliefs genuinely. Well…I dunno. I guess it depends on your definition of respect. I mean, I respect them, and according to Liberal, that’s equivalent to respecting their beliefs. Furthermore, I respect (and am kind of jealous of) their ability to believe so wholeheartedly in something so specious, even if I don’t believe in it. And even if I don’t believe what they believe, I’m not humoring them when I listen to them talk about it. And furthermore, whoever said there are no shades of grey? There are your shades of gray. Right there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/619 "2009-11-14T00:31:51Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, atheism doesn’t make you do anything? Even good stuff? The whole “morally neutral” stuff is in complete and direct clash with your moralising views on the Dope. Hardly; as I’ve often said, atheism is morally superior to religion because it’s neutral; religion is a delusional, corrupting, destructive force in the world. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I also see that the moment two atheist get together to do something they magically stop being atheist, they are fanatics, nice kindergarten-level dodge. Nonsense again. They obviously have something other than atheism in common, or they wouldn’t bother to cooperate. Even the belief that atheism is desirable goes beyond atheism. Again; you are in the position of someone trying to equate all modern religions that don’t believe in Zeus, and blame that disbelief for their misbehavior. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Your last question shows how difficult it is to put your head in the sand. Any openly atheistic parties in power? Didn’t think so. You keep trying to escape by ignoring the “in power (to do what they want)” part of my idea; reality is too hard to handle. Yet oddly enough religious believers manage to do bad things without dictatorial powers. You are actually arguing that atheism is a good thing; apparently it’s just not _ **as good** _ at being evil. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150/620 "2009-11-14T00:52:54Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > ETA: [sub]Yeticus Rex, may I kiss you?[/sub] Only on the cheek…the Wife is looking over my shoulder. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs/516150.md?page=32)