# Describe how a 'good' TV or movie character was actually a villian. Show your work **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 3, 2022, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019 "2022-08-03T12:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/241 "2023-01-07T23:28:16Z")
Much as I love “The Princess Bride,” Westley, Fezzik and Inigo are villains, too. Fezzik and Inigo are hired killers, shown actively participating in a kidnapping (I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn’t know that killing was the intended goal in that case). Westley is the kind of guy who hires killers - he’s the head of a criminal organization (a pirate ship) composed of dozens of men, who use the threat of mass murder to rob other ships. Humperdinck just has a larger army (Rugen is a sadist, so he stands out even among the others). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/242 "2023-01-08T00:27:23Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > It was straight up murder, and that it was of another killer doesn’t make it any less so. I’m not sure I can get behind a definition of “good” that requires you to let a psychopath hunt down you and all your friends. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/243 "2023-01-08T05:04:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure I can get behind a definition of “good” that requires you to let a psychopath hunt down you and all your friends. You actually think putting a low level minion through a running engine would have stopped Niska from hunting them down? Did it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/244 "2023-01-08T05:09:12Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > You actually think putting a low level minion through a running engine would have stopped Niska from hunting them down? The psychopath I’m talking about _was_ the low-level minion. Of course, there’s still the problem of _other_ psychopaths hunting them down, but given the overall circumstances, I don’t see anything immoral about thinning them out when you have the chance. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/245 "2023-01-12T03:40:24Z")
Jack McCoy is a pureborn fascist, a man who constantly ignores the law in his quest to win every case, and he absolutely _loved_ the death penalty, constantly using it as leverage against his victims. But worst was his (and Abby Carmichael, possibly the most hard-right character of the 1990s/2000s) dismissive attitude towards the US Constitution. Every time… and I mean _every goddamned time_… a suspect even DARED to suggest they have rights, McCoy would just act like it was the worst thing: “Here’s a motion to dismiss.” _Dismayed looks as we FADE TO BLACK._ OK, and I gotta go here… **Are we sure Lenny Briscoe was good?** I mean, there was that time when he fell off the wagon and was directly responsible for the sequence of events which led to Claire’s death… [and yet he never felt remorse for this.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-order-did-briscoe-ever-express-remorse-regret/697693) He was retirement age and still chasing humps on the street? Never got a promotion, didn’t even make himself rich (like Farina’s character), just kept watching his partners get promotion after promotion while he is still cracking wise over corpses 25 years after coming onto the force. Too many times he had to testify as to the quality of his police work, and frankly, he was a shit dad. Wasn’t a good good cop, wasn’t even a good corrupt cop, Lenny may not have been the absolute villain Jack McCoy was, but he was, at best, mediocre. Had his life taken one, two more bad turns, he would’ve been one of those two drunks in S1 of _The Wire_. Shit, the entire L&O franchise is just a proto-fascist operation where the accused are always presumed guilty, Rights are considered mere inconveniences in keeping the incarceral state satisfactorily fed, and the “good guy” characters are simpletons who don’t even consider that their roles in society, and how they play them, may contribute to the problems they are fighting. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/246 "2023-01-12T03:53:02Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Shit, the entire L&O franchise is just a proto-fascist operation where the accused are always presumed guilty, Rights are considered mere inconveniences in keeping the incarceral state satisfactorily fed, and the characters are simpletons who don’t even consider that their roles in society, and how they play them, may contribute to the problems they are fighting. Yes, agree with that whole thing. What a bunch of police state propaganda. And as a final bit of disrespect to the rule of law, every time some defendant actually did get off because the police and prosecutors violated their rights, there was always a courthouse steps shooting, because vigilante justice is still a happy ending. Unfortunately I’m not describing TV characters being evil, but TV writers and producers. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/247 "2023-01-12T03:59:50Z")
Yanno, maybe it _isn’t_ cool to crack jokes as you’re arresting minorities and viewing murder victims. Who knew?!? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/248 "2023-01-12T04:04:46Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > And as a final bit of disrespect to the rule of law, every time some defendant actually did get off because the police and prosecutors violated their rights, there was always a courthouse steps shooting, because vigilante justice is still a happy ending. Don’t know about _every_ time, but yeah, the number of vigilante shootings which occurred directly after a Jack McCoy courtroom loss should have triggered an investigation into his offices practices. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/249 "2023-01-12T04:11:29Z")
I’m going with the Agents from Men In Black. In particular, their use of the neuralyzer to erase people’s memories as if it was no big deal. We are our memories, and IMHO using the neuralyzer on someone is assault, and possibly even murder if enough memories are erased. IMHO the idea that all of humanity is too backward and weak willed to deal with alien life, and needs to be treated as kids too immature to deal with such a thing, is also overly paternalistic and a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/250 "2023-01-12T04:24:32Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > every time some defendant actually did get off because the police and prosecutors violated their rights, there was always a courthouse steps shooting, You should really watch more than two episodes before you draw these inaccurate conclusions. Plenty, plenty of defendants got acquitted without being gunned down. > [@JohnT](#): > > here was that time when he fell off the wagon and was directly responsible for the sequence of events which led to Claire’s death That is not his fault. Geeze. If you’re going to make someone responsible for another person being killed in a car crash, you’re going to have to condemn pretty much everyone. > [@JohnT](#): > > Wasn’t a good good cop, How do you draw this conclusion? He has a high closure rate. And he’s not on the take, like Profaci. > [@JohnT](#): > > and he absolutely _loved_ the death penalty, Again, did you even watch the show? At all? He _used_ the threat of the death penalty as a weapon, but he was not a strong supporter. Did he bend the law to win cases? Got me there. He needed to be reined in hard. > [@JohnT](#): > > the entire L&O franchise is just a proto-fascist operation where the accused are always presumed guilty, Ever see a Stone episode? Sounds like not. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/251 "2023-01-12T06:21:00Z")
Came upon this at another website today. I always thought Obi-Wan and his ilk were dodgy, especially after it was revealed they’d been lying to Luke the whole time. > **[Would Darth Vader be an anti-villain?](https://www.quora.com/Would-Darth-Vader-be-an-anti-villain/answer/Eric-Houg?ch=10&oid=1477743629170524&share=b3860c57&srid=hMMvjR&target_type=answer)** > > Answer (1 of 4): Darth Vader was not a villian in any sense of the word. The Jedi are the bad guys in the entire series. > > What you need to understand that the movies are propaganda films made in the wake of a successful takeover of the Galactic... I’m surprised no one’s mentioned Mary Poppins yet. The woman is clearly a witch who flies in out of nowhere to obtain employment using insider information and eliminating all potential rivals. She then proceeds to disrupt a stable, smoothly functioning family by poisoning the minds of impressionable children while dosing them with oddly colored potions that could be hallucinogenic and “songs” that are obviously crafted to distort reality and induce catatonic, psychotic states. It’s clear she can communicate with animals, implying she’s a sorceress and possibly a child of the Devil (in the book, she converses with a serpent after midnight) while popping in and out of alternate realities, exposing the children to all sorts of weird characters—some of whom (I’m thinking bag ladies and chimney sweeps here) have unconventional lifestyles—and who knows what else. At one point, they even levitate around her “uncle’s” flat while getting “high” on laughter at a “party” serving “tea” and (ahem!) “baked goods”! She neither explains nor apologizes for the mischief she causes, which ends with the wife becoming a militant feminist and the head of the household losing his job while his boss is driven to a premature death. She finally just packs her magic bag of tricks and flies off without so much as a “Good bye,” leaving a broken home and confused, disappointed children in her wake. (Of course, a “happy ending” had to be tacked on, like the one in _ **Pygmalion** _, because it was, after all, a Disney movie, and audiences wouldn’t go to see it otherwise.) ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/252 "2023-01-12T07:49:41Z")
Not sure if the grandmother in “Zelly and Me” qualifies for the OP. Wealthy, seemingly benign, bounding about in the garden, she also has an almost menacing underside to her. Sure, not much work shown, but that pretty well sums it up. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/253 "2023-01-12T13:09:41Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I’m surprised no one’s mentioned Mary Poppins yet. (Ahem) from my OP: 😉 > [@solost](#): > > And there’s that scary horror movie in which a mysterious woman with telekinetic powers and unspecified motives suddenly shows up in a family’s life to become their nanny, proceeding to terrorize the children and emotionally manipulate the family: > > [THE ORIGINAL Scary ‘Mary Poppins’ Recut Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T5_0AGdFic) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/254 "2023-01-12T13:14:15Z")
Mary Poppins: unseelie fae, elder one or rogue Time Lord? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/255 "2023-01-12T17:25:44Z")
In Titanic, we are supposed to be rooting for Jack and Rose and hissing at her mean rich industrialist fiancé Cal. But I’m not really sure why Cal is the bad guy. I’d be pissed off too if my fiancé (who is only marrying me for my money) started acting like a spoiled brat because she thinks a life of luxury isn’t what she wants and starts fucking some hobo from steerage she met during an emotional meltdown. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/256 "2023-01-12T18:39:03Z")
My apologies. 😞 ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/257 "2023-01-12T18:53:10Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > My apologies. 😞. No problem! I very much enjoyed your “Mary Poppins as bad guy” analysis, which was much more in-depth than mine. Do Maria in “The Sound of Music” now! Here’s my take: Maria diabolically gains the confidence of the children, turning them against their father, Captain von Trapp, by teaching them silly pursuits like singing and wearing clothing made from draperies. Then she seduces von Trapp and lures him away from his fiancee, the Baroness. He ultimately turns so anti-authority due to her influence he becomes a draft dodger. How _ **do** _ you solve a problem like Maria? BTW, I just now realized that Julie Andrews’ two most iconic roles were both playing nannies. Typecast much? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/258 "2023-01-12T19:24:19Z")
> [@solost](#): > > > [@terentii](#): > > > > My apologies. 😞. > > Maria diabolically gains the confidence of the children, turning them against their father, Captain von Trapp, by teaching them silly pursuits like singing and wearing clothing made from draperies. Then she seduces von Trapp and lures him away from his fiancee, the Baroness. He ultimately turns so anti-authority due to her influence he becomes a draft dodger. How _ **do** _ you solve a problem like Maria? > > BTW, I just now realized that Julie Andrews’ two most iconic roles were both playing nannies. Typecast much? Go to page 43: > **[MAD Issue #108 - Read MAD Issue #108 comic online in high...](https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/MAD/Issue-108?id=72793#1)** > > Read MAD Issue #108 comic online free and high quality. Unique reading type: All pages - just need to scroll to read next page. 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/259 "2023-01-13T05:44:44Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But I’m not really sure why Cal is the bad guy. Planting evidence of theft on Jack, then laughing about how he is now going to drown? Sneaking onto a lifeboat by pretending to be a father? I mean, it’s certainly possible for there to be a fiance whose fiancee throws him aside for a rich poor guy where the fiance is a decent person. But it is certainly not Caladin Hockley. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/260 "2023-01-13T06:06:28Z")
And don’t forget domestic violence against his fiancee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019.md?page=14)