# Describe how a 'good' TV or movie character was actually a villian. Show your work **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 3, 2022, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019 "2022-08-03T12:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/21 "2022-08-03T22:06:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That is because for the interests of time , simplicity, plot and budget, the movie conflated the two Good witches, and is thus totally and utterly wrong. The movie adaptation, at least the most commonly known 1939/Judy Garland version, took quite a few liberties. Overall they work just fine and it’s a great movie. But, as is common when books are turned into movies, plots get left out, [multiple characters get consolidated into one](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CompositeCharacter/LiveActionFilms) and whatever else is needed to make sure you don’t end up with a 10 hour movie. This, as you might expect, can lead to plot holes which are either un-noticed by the writers, ignored or given a quick and dirty explanation. In Wizard of Oz, [Glinda was asked why she didn’t just tell Dorothy right at the beginning that she could use the shoes to get home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWliUYDpO5U). Glinda told her she had to learn it for herself. Even that doesn’t hold up since she didn’t learn it for herself, she was explicitly told. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Glinda had no idea at all that the slippers could take Dorothy home, that was the OTHER Good Witch. Very minor nitpick. In the book, Glinda showed up at the end. The Good Witch of the North basically says, paraphrased, ‘i dunno, maybe ask the Wizard’. After a series of hiccups with him, Glinda steps in to help. Sidenote, the book is really good and a quick read (as well as the next one or two, but they quickly go downhill after that). One of the things I always found really interesting is that the flying monkeys aren’t evil, they just happened to be under the Wicked Witch’s control. Later in the book, Dorothy gains control of them and they help her along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/22 "2022-08-03T22:50:28Z")
Caractacus Potts in _Chitty Chitty Bang Bang_. He disfigures some poor guy with his haircutting machine, summons a pack of dogs to trash a candy factory, and overlooks his father’s obvious mental illness. To top it off he goes to a foreign country and foments a revolution to overthrow the government; nothing but the worst sort of British imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/23 "2022-08-03T23:37:49Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Very minor nitpick. In the book, Glinda showed up at the end. The Good Witch of the North basically says, paraphrased, ‘i dunno, maybe ask the Wizard’. After a series of hiccups with him, Glinda steps in to help. You are right, Locasta was the name of the Good witch of the North, Glinda knew more. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/24 "2022-08-03T23:43:56Z")
Ferris Beuller is a complete asshole. He follows his interests and his alone throughout life, never thinking about what others might want or how his actions will affect them. He constantly uses and bullies his “friend”. He shows no respect for his girlfriend, paying no attention to what she wants to do, and telling her he’ll have trouble remembering her after high school. He bullies and ridicules service staff. Oh, a parade that other people are enjoying? Screw them, I want to perform, so I’ll just ruin it for everyone else. What a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/25 "2022-08-03T23:44:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are right, Locasta was the name of the Good witch of the North, Glinda knew more. FWIW, I wouldn’t have known that off the top of my head. I saw it when I was double checking some of the other elements I was posting. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/26 "2022-08-04T01:18:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep, trespasses on Indian land, and starts a shoot-out that ends with two dead. Over a few cattle, which can easily be handled by legal means. Well, I think the issue with Yellowstone is that there aren’t any good guys. There was no “easily handled by legal means” in that scenario, because the Indian tribe can simply dig their heels in and tell the feds or the Montana cattle guard (or whatever it’s called) to go pound sand. And that was their goal all along - to cause trouble, knowing that Costner & Sons would push things too far, and then they could press the issue. Very much a “chaos is a ladder” motive. (Speaking of, is there a Yellowstone thread? I binged the hell out of the show, and my recollection may be fuzzy on most of that.) ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/27 "2022-08-04T01:50:46Z")
> [@solost](#): > > And there’s that scary horror movie in which a mysterious woman with telekinetic powers and unspecified motives suddenly shows up in a family’s life to become their nanny, proceeding to terrorize the children and emotionally manipulate the family: That’s much more faithful to the book. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/28 "2022-08-04T02:25:49Z")
Chief nerd, Lewis in **Revenge of the Nerds**. Rapist. ‘Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/29 "2022-08-04T02:28:17Z")
He’s also quite rude to Scrumptious ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/30 "2022-08-04T02:33:19Z")
And he tries to rhyme “bumbershoot” with “bamboo”. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/31 "2022-08-04T02:34:10Z")
Harry Callahan is a fascist, homophobic, thug, who thinks he’s the (only) good guy. No one can match up to Harry’s exacting standards of cop perfection. His disdain for the constitution is total. I’m actually surprised he didn’t willingly join the “magnum force”… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/32 "2022-08-04T02:44:06Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > He’s also quite rude to Scrumptious Yeah, but she buts into his life and starts telling him how to raise his children. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/33 "2022-08-04T02:56:00Z")
As discussed in many threads here over the years, every character on _How I Met Your Mother_ was either selfish and manipulative (Barney and Lily), self-centered and emotionally immature (Ted and Robin), or a doormat (Marshall). The only character who came across as sympathetic was the Mother, and they probably would have ruined her if she’d been on for any longer. The characters on _Friends_ were just as bad, but the producers had enough sense to put their character flaws right up front. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/34 "2022-08-04T21:07:37Z")
I agree. Given the generation I’m from, that movie is supposed to be one of the classics of my youth, but I’ve always hated it. What a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/35 "2022-08-04T21:17:44Z")
Oh, I still love the movie, and I wanted to be like Ferris. But there’s no denying that looked at from the perspective of any other character in the movie, Ferris is the villain. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/36 "2022-08-04T21:22:37Z")
There are so many action movies where the distinction between _bad guy’s mooks_ and _innocent police and security guards_ is lost at a certain point, and the “hero” is killing both with gusto. But the only examples I can think of right now are The Matrix: which explicitly states that, essentially, it is necessary for a few innocents to die for the liberation of all humanity. And Batman movies, which try to pretend no innocents get hurt, although we do see e.g. cars getting flipped, and that he’s a flawed hero anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/37 "2022-08-04T23:44:18Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Yep, trespasses on Indian land, and starts a shoot-out that ends with two dead. Over a few cattle, which can easily be handled by legal means. > > Well, I think the issue with Yellowstone is that there aren’t any good guys. There was no “easily handled by legal means” in that scenario, because the Indian tribe can simply dig their heels in and tell the feds or the Montana cattle guard (or whatever it’s called) to go pound sand. And that was their goal all along - to cause trouble, knowing that Costner & Sons would push things too far, and then they could press the issue. Very much a “chaos is a ladder” motive. > > (Speaking of, is there a Yellowstone thread? I binged the hell out of the show, and my recollection may be fuzzy on most of that.) Yellowstone is Stetson Sopranos. You might like the characters but they are not supposed to be good people. It’s all shades of grey. At least when it was a tighter show the first few seasons. It’s become a bit of a muddled mess. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/38 "2022-08-05T00:34:43Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Oh, I still love the movie, and I wanted to be like Ferris. But there’s no denying that looked at from the perspective of any other character in the movie, Ferris is the villain. I think that’s pretty common. If our POV was through the eyes of Mr Rooney, Ferris would be little more than an asshole student that’s dragging two friends down with him. If we saw it through the eyes of Cameron or Jeanie, similar arguments could be made. Look at the Sopranos. We were rooting for Tony but we could have just as easily sided with one of the other bosses if the show were from their POV. However, ISTM, the writers made Ferris out to be the good guy really only to the audience, Sloane, Cameron and random onlookers (hence the bystanders enjoying his parade performance and the students having a rally for him). But he was clearly a thorn in Mr Rooney’s side. Cameron was more than aware, even at the beginning of the movie, how angry his dad was going to be if he took the car out. Jeanie hated every fiber of his being because she knows he always gets away with this type of thing. Whether or not that was all on purpose or just worked out that way, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/39 "2022-08-05T01:10:53Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Ferris Beuller is a complete asshole. He follows his interests and his alone throughout life, never thinking about what others might want or how his actions will affect them. Have you heard the fan theory that Ferris Bueller is actually a figment of Cameron’s imagination? His Id manifested, his own Tyler Durden, conjured up to help him break away from the repression of his controlling father. Though for it to work I guess Cameron would have had to imagine the events of the whole day, not just an imaginary Ferris (and an imaginary Sloane) while he actually did things in Chicago. Kind of a silly idea but it’s out there: > **[Ferris Bueller's Day Off](https://fantheories.fandom.com/wiki/Ferris_Bueller%27s_Day_Off)** > > Ferris Bueller's Day Off is a 1986 coming of age comedy film written and directed by John Hughes.  The film follows two high school seniors, one popular, one clinically depressed, and the popular guy's girlfriend as they play hooky from school... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/40 "2022-08-05T03:30:37Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > There was no “easily handled by legal means” in that scenario, because the Indian tribe can simply dig their heels in and tell the feds or the Montana cattle guard (or whatever it’s called) to go pound sand. Montana Cattle gd- yes. Sheriff- maybe. Feds- No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019.md?page=3)