# Describe how a 'good' TV or movie character was actually a villian. Show your work **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 3, 2022, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019 "2022-08-03T12:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/161 "2022-12-01T16:30:19Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > a willful desire to force everyone to play along with you, at risk to their well-being and happiness is the realm of a villain. Which reminds me of Tom Sawyer at the end of _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/162 "2022-12-01T16:30:28Z")
I did back my claims, but you simply didn’t accept it. So, the next logical step would be for you to see it for yourself and then make a judgment based on that. “Girl from Nowhere” Season One Episode Two: “Apologies” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/163 "2022-12-01T16:44:29Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I did back my claims, but you simply didn’t accept it. There’s a fair amount of space between her engineering “resentful, jealous, and openly lusting” feelings and their choice of “drugging, raping, and murdering” that isn’t well supported as an inevitable result of her meddling. From your description, they seem to have chosen that response when other responses were possible. Granted, none of these particular crimes would have been committed if she had just left the kids alone, but the five broken kids make some seriously awful choices to commit the crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/164 "2022-12-01T16:50:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Granted, none of these particular crimes would have been committed if she had just left the kids alone, but the five broken kids make some seriously awful choices to commit the crimes. I have no argument with that. Thus arose the debate surrounding Nano. Is she true justice incarnate or a demon child? After watching two season and a few episodes several times, I’m thinking some of both. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/165 "2022-12-01T17:17:00Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There’s a fair amount of space between her engineering “resentful, jealous, and openly lusting” feelings and their choice of “drugging, raping, and murdering” that isn’t well supported as an inevitable result of her meddling. From your description, they seem to have chosen that response when other responses were possible. Exactly this. She didn’t put them in a situation where they had no choice but to drug and rape her. She just gave them the opportunity to do so. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/166 "2022-12-01T17:36:33Z")
Useful TVTrope (of course) for parts of our discussion: > **[Sociopathic Hero - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SociopathicHero)** > > They fight for the good guys. They might even believe in the cause (to a point). But they are a hero only in name. They are Anti-Heroes who have a fundamental Lack of Empathy, a sociopathic disregard for their enemies' lives, and possibly a lack … > They are [Anti-Heroes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiHero) who have a fundamental [Lack of Empathy](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LackOfEmpathy), a [sociopathic](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSociopath) disregard for their enemies’ lives, and possibly a lack of concern for even the people they save. They may be motivated [by boredom](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItAmusedMe), [a raw thirst for combat](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight), or by some sort of carrot-and-stick arrangement — [a chip in the head](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RestrainingBolt), [an attachment to some person or thing that requires them to do good](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralityChain), or a [pragmatic code that prevents them from landing in jail or in a shallow grave](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralSociopathy). ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/167 "2022-12-01T18:10:53Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Useful TVTrope (of course) for parts of our discussion: ‘Sociopathic hero’, very interesting, thanks! I swear that site has a trope (and a sub-trope, and a sub-sub-trope, etc…) for everything. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/168 "2022-12-01T18:39:17Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Which reminds me of Tom Sawyer at the end of _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_. Oh good one! Tom really needed someone to kick his rustic little ass. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/169 "2022-12-01T18:43:36Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Whether he qualifies as an Elder God or Demiurge as indicated by @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness is up to you, but it seems at least somewhat supported by the original text. A quick review of various sources (since I don’t have time to go back and buy and re-read a copy) seem to support a reading (similar to my own) that he takes the sociopathic tendencies of children, and lack of comprehension of consequences, to the nth degree, with predictable results. Combined with the textual confirmation that he refuses to grow up, and instead protects himself by constantly forgetting the details of his own adventures to never truly learn, and he’s either some form of semi-tragic demigod that’s trapped himself in the idealized form of a child, or a manipulator who’s set himself up to endlessly enjoy the selfishness of youth regardless of consequences for anyone other than himself. That sounds less like an elder god and more like one of the fae. Which makes sense, as Neverland is a variation on Faerie. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/170 "2022-12-01T18:49:58Z")
I’m really surprised no one has mentioned **Dexter** ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/171 "2022-12-01T19:22:45Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I’m really surprised no one has mentioned **Dexter** … I saw Dexter mentioned in the ‘Sociopathic Hero’ trope that @ParallelLines linked to. He’s kind of the inverse of my OP-- he’s clearly stated to be a violent murderous psychopath from the very start, and yet since he was taught to channel his tendencies only towards serial killers, his actions are morally justifiable (at least in a fictional TV universe). He’s a ‘bad’ TV character who was actually a good guy. BTW, after watching the latest ‘reboot’ season of Dexter, I think they should do a spin-off series starring his son-- he could be a serial killer who only targets serial killers who only target serial killers 😄 ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/172 "2022-12-01T19:53:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That sounds less like an elder god and more like one of the fae. Which makes sense, as Neverland is a variation on Faerie. Elder God was LHoD characterization, but I do felt a lot of similarities to various fae tales. Specifically (and we’re getting well past the OP) he feels a LOT like a changeling. A mortal child brought into faerie (the world) and to whom faerie responds too quite strongly. But with just enough mortal memories to keep being drawn back to ‘the real world’ periodically, with horrible consequences to those who catch his fickle and timeless eye. Admittedly, this is the more recent (and fictional) variant of the changeling, as the historical ones were pretty much always fae left behind in the mortal realm in exchange for a human child. Still, it ties quite strongly into the theme of stolen, lost, and/or adopted children, all of whom may figuratively be creating new worlds for themselves, which in Pan’s case, may be more literal. Back to thread though, the issue of differentiation is often goals vs means. A villain may do the right thing for the wrong reason, or a hero may do the wrong thing for the right reason, and POV (or good propaganda!) determines which is which. I think that’s why most modern storytelling wants shades of gray for both. One of my favorite examples of this is the much-missed Farscape series. By the end WARNING, MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR A SHOW THAT’S BEEN OFF THE AIR FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS… > **Summary** > > The protagonist John Crichton has become, in his own words, a nuclear terrorist in an effort to protect earth and broker a peace, and finally ends up creating and USING a weapon capable of destroying the known territories of the universe to force peace. > > Meanwhile, one of the main antagonists of the series, Scorpius, has been revealed to have been one of the only ones who saw the threat coming, and was willing to risk himself repeatedly, and take any action, no matter how evil-seeming, in order to protect people who largely hated and discounted him for his parentage. From a different POV, he’d be the sociopathic hero (and in some ways is in later seasons anyway) driven by revenge against his parental species. > > And even THEN, in-world, an alternate universe in which said race conquered earth in the past, reveals a society that is not fully equal or free, but is almost certainly a better world in terms of health, longevity, and peace than the Earth of our continuity! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/173 "2022-12-02T01:14:16Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Elder God was LHoD characterization, but I do felt a lot of similarities to various fae tales. That definitely works, as long as everyone’s clear that the fae in question aren’t Precious Moments fairies but are deeply inhuman menaces. _Peter Pan_ is an amazing creation of a character; I’m so glad that Barrie’s fucked up imagination came up with such a wonderful and dreadful creature. He fits well into the OP, though, inasmuch as most folks think of him as a lighthearted scamp of a hero, when really he’s much, much scarier than that. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/174 "2022-12-02T01:20:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That definitely works, as long as everyone’s clear that the fae in question aren’t Precious Moments fairies but are deeply inhuman menaces. I find the absolute most telling description of Elves and Fae, at least in the mythic sense, rather than the modern Lord of the Rings / D&D / Disney iteration came from the late great Terry Pratchett: > “Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. > Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. > Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. > Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. > Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. > Elves are terrific. They beget terror. > The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. > No one ever said elves are nice. > Elves are bad.” From the novel “Lords and Ladies” So absolutely in your camp in terms of Pan and tales of the ‘Fair Ones’ LHoD. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/175 "2022-12-02T01:24:23Z")
> [@solost](#): > > He’s a ‘bad’ TV character who was actually a good guy. We might want to think this - we ‘like’ to see bad guys get what they deserve, and for sure, Dexter chose some _very_ bad people. But in doing so - he chose to work for the police (the arguably worst station in history) and intentionally subverted any case work they were doing to feed his need. Had he not done so, its entirely plausible that the officers may have been able to successfully prosecute many, if not all, of the cases. So - he is a bad guy trying to be a hero and blocking the real wheels of justice in the process, making him an even worse bad guy - his actions directly caused the death of GOOD people as well. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/176 "2022-12-02T15:05:23Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - he is a bad guy trying to be a hero and blocking the real wheels of justice in the process, making him an even worse bad guy - his actions directly caused the death of GOOD people as well. So he’s a bad guy who is trying to be a good guy, but the way he goes about it makes him an even worse bad guy. Say what you will about the show and the uneven nature of its seasons, but that was an interesting character. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/177 "2022-12-02T16:25:42Z")
Interesting character? Absolutely Fun show? Absolutely But he was not a ‘bad guy trying to be a good guy’ - he was a bad guy that found a ‘loophole’ so that he could justify and continue being a bad guy. That he took out ‘worse guys’ was they way we justified calling him a ‘good guy’. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/178 "2022-12-02T16:38:32Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But he was not a ‘bad guy trying to be a good guy’ - he was a bad guy that found a ‘loophole’ so that he could justify and continue being a bad guy. That he took out ‘worse guys’ was they way we justified calling him a ‘good guy’. OK, well, the character existed in an unusual moral gray area in any case. A violent psychopath by nature, he found a ‘loophole’ so that he could satisfy his violent desires. I don’t think he did it just so he could continue being a bad guy, though. If he had gotten caught killing serial killers he would have been just as busted as if he was killing upstanding citizens. His father recognized his true nature and channeled it into a more ‘positive’ outcome. And even though he didn’t have the same emotions and morals as ‘normal’ people I think some part of him also wanted to channel his impulses in a more positive way. Also, if I remember correctly, the writers lightened up his character a little in later seasons and he started to grow a bit of a conscience. His actions still had unintended consequences that led to innocents dying. At no point in his character development could he have been thought of as an unambiguously ‘good guy’ though, so I don’t think he fits for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/179 "2022-12-02T18:22:45Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > I find the absolute most telling description of Elves and Fae, at least in the mythic sense, rather than the modern Lord of the Rings / D&D / Disney iteration came from the late great Terry Pratchett: Yeah, I love that description, and almost brought it up myself! I was just too lazy to Google it. Thanks for quoting it! ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019/180 "2022-12-02T18:52:00Z")
Well, Tolkien’s First Age Elves weren’t the “more enlightened than you!” elves of LOTR. The heroic ones still do brutal combat, and then you have Faenor & sons, Eöl, and Maeglin. If you’re interest in “dark” fae fiction, Changeling: the Lost is interesting. It’s a pen and paper RPG so not really accessible to the casual interest, but there’s some reading out there. This game is from the “reboot” of the world where Changeling went from one of the least dark POV adventures about maintaining whimsy in an increasingly banal world, to the darkest property in the game. Player characters are essentially humans who were abducted by the fae and replaced by a changeling, subjected to horrible tortures physical and metaphysical. Finally you escaped, but you’re not quite human any more, plus you’re constantly paranoid that the True Fae monsters will come to take you back. Plus the aforementioned doppelganger is out there somewhere, who may or may not be evil, but has stolen your life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/describe-how-a-good-tv-or-movie-character-was-actually-a-villian-show-your-work/969019.md?page=10)