# Descriptivists: When does an "error" become "nonstandard usage" become "alternative"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 8, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063 "2009-06-08T02:58:55Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/1 "2009-06-08T02:58:55Z")
In part triggered by a [thread on the pronunciation of “asterisk”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=520339), I have a question for the descriptivists in the group. I’ll use that thread as an example.
Once upon a time (possibly), everybody pronounced the word as spelled, as “asterisk.” Then one person came along and said “asterix” or “asterik.” Would a descriptivist say that person made an error, or created a nonstandard pronunciation? If it’s an error, how many people have to make the same error before it becomes a nonstandard pronunciation? How many before it becomes an alternative pronunciation?
The same question would apply to usage as well, such as the use of “comprise” to mean “compose” (especially the usage such as “is comprised of”) rather than the meaning of its Latin origin of “include.”
I realize there is no formal standard for English grammar, usage, or pronunciation, and I have no desire to establish the Language Police, but I do want to understand when does an error become no longer an error but something else.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/2 "2009-06-08T03:44:20Z")
There is of course no literal, numerical, or epistemological answer to this.
The rule of thumb I’ve often stated here is that a usage is standard when it is commonly adopted by good writers, good writers defined as the general class of working newspaper, magazine, book and other print writers that the public reads.
This therefore accounts for ain’t and irregardless being still considered non-standard, despite decades of occurrence. It allows new usages to move into the language with a fair rapidity while keeping most faddish slang out. Practices like apostrophes in plurals are seldom tolerated in good writing, but the contraction of two-word phrases to hyphenated to single word status moves apace.
What the status is of any individual word is therefore a matter of debate and conjecture. As the American Heritage usage panel has shown consistently for decades, this is the way it’s always been and will be for any foreseeable future.
Standard pronunciation is harder to gauge this way, but pronunciation is best left to the experts. As I said in that other thread, you (plural you) don’t know how you really pronounce words until you parse them from a recording. You may think you pronounce asterisk in the “correct” manner, but you have no idea how it or 10,000 other common words are being heard by listeners. The subtleties of variation fill many boring books.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/3 "2009-06-08T05:05:01Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#):
>
> This therefore accounts for ain’t and irregardless being still considered non-standard, despite decades of occurrence. .
" Ain’t" is a perfectly good dialectical word, has been around since before the USA was a nation, and is accepted as such by Oxford.
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/4 "2009-06-08T06:03:49Z")
I read an interesting article once about how dictionary writers decide on new words, meanings, and spellings for inclusion. (sorry, it was a while ago and I wouldn’t be able to remember the source for the life of me) Pronunciation is another can of worms but you also mention usage.
The gist though was they read a lot, and they have to be able to find multiple instances across a fairly broad spectrum of media - it can’t be something you only see used within a confined group. So basically if it’s a word/usage/spelling that’s making its way into newspapers and novels as well as blogs and windshield flyers then it becomes “legit”.
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/5 "2009-06-08T10:23:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> " Ain’t" is a perfectly good dialectical word, has been around since before the USA was a nation, and is accepted as such by Oxford.
No one is disputing that. What is being stated is that it is nonstandard in formal writing.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/6 "2009-06-08T15:17:44Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#):
>
> Once upon a time (possibly), everybody pronounced the word as spelled, as “asterisk.” Then one person came along and said “asterix” or “asterik.” Would a descriptivist say that person made an error, or created a nonstandard pronunciation? If it’s an error, how many people have to make the same error before it becomes a nonstandard pronunciation? How many before it becomes an alternative pronunciation?
A true descriptivist would only call that an error is the listener could not make out what the speaker intended to convey. So even that first “asterix” would be considered an OK variant for colloquial speech.
To sum – descriptivists do not comment on matters of style. “Bad” style =/= miscommunication.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/7 "2009-06-08T15:54:28Z")
One possible objective standard is that a native speaker of a language is incapable of error, at least in the spoken form of the language.
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### Author:  [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/8 "2009-06-08T16:02:01Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> One possible objective standard is that a native speaker of a language is incapable of error, at least in the spoken form of the language.
Well, that’s too extreme. What if a native speaker immediately recognises the error and self-corrects?
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/9 "2009-06-08T16:03:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> One possible objective standard is that a native speaker of a language is incapable of error, at least in the spoken form of the language.
That’s not strictly true, though I know what you are trying to say and I can’t for the life of me figure out another way to say it. Native speakers do make slips of the tongue and other mistakes, and they recognize them when they occur. But those are errors in speech, not grammar. A form occurring naturally on the lips of a native speaker, understood by other members of the speech community, cannot be an error no matter how deviant from the formal language.
As a side note, I came across this in the Scarlet Pimpernel (1905): “Her coachman, too, had been indefatigable; the promise of special and rich reward had no doubt helped to keep him up, and he had literally burned the ground beneath his mistress’ coach wheels.” I had no idea the use of “literally” to mean “figuratively” went back that far. [I would have said “mistress’s,” as well, but that might be the modern editor’s work.]
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/10 "2009-06-09T15:48:45Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> A form occurring naturally on the lips of a native speaker, **understood by other members of the speech community** , cannot be an error no matter how deviant from the formal language.
This is descriptivism in a nutshell. Well said.
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/11 "2009-06-09T16:08:49Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> I had no idea the use of “literally” to mean “figuratively” went back that far.
Of course it did. Or rather, ‘literally’ has and always will mean ‘literally’, and always has and always will be used as a hyperbolic way to mean, ‘almost but not really.’
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/12 "2009-06-09T16:14:15Z")
A side question: what do you call the people who neither want to document how native speakers speak nor maintain a status quo of how sophisticated writers ought to, but ask the question, ‘How should we formulate the language to make it better?’
Kind of like language designers. Because I’ve always found it ironic that both prescriptivists and descriptivists are really on about the same thing. It’s just the former are behind the latter by 50-200 years. But what do you call someone who actually analyzes the communicative merits of inserting an apostrophe before the plural s of acronyms or other specially-formed words?
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### Author:  [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/13 "2009-06-09T16:33:15Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> As a side note, I came across this in the Scarlet Pimpernel (1905): “Her coachman, too, had been indefatigable; the promise of special and rich reward had no doubt helped to keep him up, and he had literally burned the ground beneath his mistress’ coach wheels.” I had no idea the use of “literally” to mean “figuratively” went back that far.
Baroness Orczy was not a stickler for accuracy or realism. Isn’t it possible she meant _literally_? (This, I feel, illustrates a problem with taking descriptivism too far. Accept _literally_ as a synonym for _figuratively_, and it winds up communicating nothing.)
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/14 "2009-06-09T17:50:16Z")
> [@TWDuke](#):
>
> Baroness Orczy was not a stickler for accuracy or realism. Isn’t it possible she meant _literally_? (This, I feel, illustrates a problem with taking descriptivism too far. Accept _literally_ as a synonym for _figuratively_, and it winds up communicating nothing.)
Agreed. Descriptivism is most useful for the spoken language. For the written litterature, prescriptivism is more useful. That’s why we have an educational system and style guides and the whole ball of wax. Of course, there’s dialect literature (and dialectal moments in standard-language literature) just to keep it interesting, not to mention language change.
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/15 "2009-06-09T18:01:43Z")
> [@TWDuke](#):
>
> Baroness Orczy was not a stickler for accuracy or realism. Isn’t it possible she meant _literally_? (This, I feel, illustrates a problem with taking descriptivism too far. Accept _literally_ as a synonym for _figuratively_, and it winds up communicating nothing.)
That happens a lot. My favorite (or most hated) example is the muddled meaning of will/may/might. A lot of times people will say ‘might’ when they should really say ‘will’ just to cover their ass or out of habit. It confuses _everything_. A real blight on our language (especially in technical contexts).
But it’s not a matter of grammar or word meaning, but of usage. Just like using ‘literally’ to mean ‘almost like’, it’s well within poetic license.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/16 "2009-06-09T18:25:07Z")
I have never understood there to be any difference in shall/will and may/might, so I have never been confused.
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/17 "2009-06-09T18:34:07Z")
(will) \> (probably will) \> (may) \> (might) \> (might possibly)
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### Author:  [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/18 "2009-06-09T18:38:03Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#):
>
> (will) \> (probably will) \> (may) \> (might) \> (might possibly)
(might possibly) \> (thinking about it) \> (we’ll see)
🙂
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/19 "2009-06-09T18:58:19Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#):
>
> (may) \> (might) \> (might possibly)
1. This distinction between “may” and “might” makes no sense to me.
2. “Might possibly” just sounds like a redundancy.
3. If you must distinguish between “may” and “might” I would prefer this one:
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/descriptivists-when-does-an-error-become-nonstandard-usage-become-alternative/499063/20 "2009-06-09T22:04:51Z")
Maybe I’ve been mistaken, but I’ve always thought, “this may do that” was a realistic probability of, say, 5-20%, while “this might do that” was a more remote possibility of, eg, 1-5%. Not sure why, but that was always my impression of what the words meant. “Etymological” arguments aside.
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> c. Your schema offers me way too much granularity to be useful in common speech. You might as well use numbers if you want to get this fine.
I’ve been advocating this all along, and our discource would be infinitely better for it.
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