# "Desecration" of the Eucharist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144 "2011-03-18T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/1 "2011-03-18T13:09:03Z")
The events of this link: [http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the\_great\_desecration.php](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php) (to summarize, atheist blogger PZ Myers obtained a consecrated Catholic Eucharist and then pierced it with a rusty nail and discarded it, along with copies of a Richard Dawkins book and pages ripped from the Quran) happened years ago, I know, but I came across it recently. His self-stated purpose was to show that nothing should be held sacred, and everything should be questioned. I’m most interested in the reaction from Catholics and other Christians: most seemed to be horrified (for example [http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/pz-myers-desecrates-the-euchar.html](http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/pz-myers-desecrates-the-euchar.html) and [http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465](http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465)). The great anger is not surprising; after all, it is a sacred object to many. But isn’t it hypocritical for Catholics to express such shock and outrage at this, yet they venerate the Biblical Abraham (who destroyed his fathers idols), and numerous Saints who destroyed false idols and graven images in the name of their religion (like Saint Abraham of Rostov and Saint Christina of Bolsena)? Isn’t it obvious that their outrage is at someone daring to desecrate THEIR sacred object, not the desecration of sacred and venerated objects in general? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/2 "2011-03-18T13:16:01Z")
I think it’s probably because they don’t regard their sacred things to be in the same category as ‘idols’, at all. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/3 "2011-03-18T13:20:18Z")
So your saying a troublemaker wanted to cause trouble and your are wondering why some people are troubled by it all? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/4 "2011-03-18T13:28:26Z")
That’s a reasonable point, but did you have any examples of Christians desecrating idols in, say, the last hundred years or so? And ISTM that Bill Donahue has a valid point - > [@](#): > > … a bias incident, as defined by the University of Minnesota. The policy says that ‘Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or hostility against an individual, group or their property because of the individual or group’s actual or perceived race, color, creed, religion…can be forms of discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or resentment in others…even when presented as a joke.’ So it seems that either [list=A][li]The definition of bias incident as used by the University of Minnesota is not a worthwhile policy, or [\*]this is a bias incident, just as if Meyers had dressed in blackface and reenacted a lynching or something.[/list] [/li] In my opinion, it’s A. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/5 "2011-03-18T13:40:02Z")
UM probably gives itself an out with the phrase “can be” (a form of discrimination). In other words, they’ll decide if it’s actionable on the basis of less than clear-cut guidelines. In this case, I believe they took down a link to PZ’s blog on their own website, after Donahue went ballistic over the “cracker incident”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/6 "2011-03-18T14:22:20Z")
Shodan, it doesn’t seem to me to be a “bias incident”, any more than a Hindu claiming outrage because a butcher slaughtered a cow. With regards to any incidents more recent, none spring to mind. This calls for some google-fu. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/7 "2011-03-18T14:35:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shodan, it doesn’t seem to me to be a “bias incident”, any more than a Hindu claiming outrage because a butcher slaughtered a cow. The incident certainly seems to fit the U of M’s definition. He is certainly hostile, it was disrespectful, based on a group’s religion(s), and clearly caused anger and resentment. The U of M disagrees, but I would doubt they could come up with a clear rationale for the distinction between this, and re-enactments of a minstrel show to protest blacks voting for Obama (for instance). These kinds of policies strike me as similar to the definition of pornography as given by Justice Potter Stewart - “I know it when I see it”. That’s too vague, and too open to abuse, to be useful. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/8 "2011-03-18T14:39:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shodan, it doesn’t seem to me to be a “bias incident”, any more than a Hindu claiming outrage because a butcher slaughtered a cow. There are plenty of areligious reasons to slaughter a cow. For meat, for example. If someone slaughtered a cow on the street in front of a Hindu temple it would be interpreted differently. Puncturing a cracker with a nail absent any context should not be considered a “bias incident” but in this particular incident, the guy was clearly targeting members of a certain faith with a deliberately provocative act. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/9 "2011-03-18T14:44:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The incident certainly seems to fit the U of M’s definition. He is certainly hostile, it was disrespectful, based on a group’s religion(s), and clearly caused anger and resentment. He put a nail in a piece of bread, dude. He did nothing to anybody and insulted nobody. He did not harrass or discriminate. Not having a belief in magical bread is not “disrespectful.” He’s not responsible for the irrational responses of morons to what he does in private. Trying to characterize this as a “bias incident” is retarded beyond words and completely typical of that buffoon, Donohue. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/10 "2011-03-18T14:47:13Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > There are plenty of areligious reasons to slaughter a cow. For meat, for example. If someone slaughtered a cow on the street in front of a Hindu temple it would be interpreted differently. > > Puncturing a cracker with a nail absent any context should not be considered a “bias incident” but in this particular incident, the guy was clearly targeting members of a certain faith with a deliberately provocative act. Targeting them for what? What did he actually do to them? How were they harrassed or discriminated against? How were they injured or insulted? This is like saying that eating a BLT is antisemitic. It’s completely moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/11 "2011-03-18T14:56:47Z")
When my oldest daughter as getting ready for First Communion, I had to take her to some kind of little class about it where they told parents and kids the details of what was going to happen, the theological significance, etc. One lady started talking about how Satanists sometimes would go to Mass and steal a host, then take it back to their lairs for desecration rituals. She talked about how they would curse it and spit on it in this tone like she was talking about the Holocaust. I was amused not just at how seriously she took this - like stomping on a cracker was the same as stomping a baby - but at the image of a bunch of sullen,“Satanist” losers actually doing that stuff and thinking they were really performing some kind of terribly transgressive act. It would just be such an impotent and silly thing to do. It shouldn’t bother Catholics at all. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/12 "2011-03-18T15:15:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Isn’t it obvious that their outrage is at someone daring to desecrate THEIR sacred object, not the desecration of sacred and venerated objects in general? Yes, that is obvious. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He did nothing to anybody and insulted nobody. He did not harrass or discriminate. Not having a belief in magical bread is not “disrespectful.” He’s not responsible for the irrational responses of morons to what he does in private. He was _trying_ to provoke exactly those responses. That was the whole point. It wasn’t a private act. The fact that I too find Catholic transubstantiation absurd doesn’t mean I find any value in this exercise. It’s of a piece with Pastor Terry Jones announcing he’s going to burn copies of the Qur’an in Florida. Yes, it’s just a cracker. Just a book. But deliberately making insulting, provocative public gestures with someone else’s symbols is the _opposite_ of principled and rational debate. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/13 "2011-03-18T15:24:45Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Yes, that is obvious. > > He was _trying_ to provoke exactly those responses. Cite? He said he was trying to make a point about the irrationality of sacred objects. He also included the Qu’ran (the descration of which doesn’t seem to bother any of those Catholics) and _The God Delusion_ as part of his exercise. He did not do anything to any of those complainers, and if he had only trashed a Qu’ran, none of them would care. It’s none of their business what he does with his own cracker, and actually trying to claim some sort of injury from it is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/14 "2011-03-18T15:25:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When my oldest daughter as getting ready for First Communion, I had to take her to some kind of little class about it where they told parents and kids the details of what was going to happen, the theological significance, etc. One lady started talking about how Satanists sometimes would go to Mass and steal a host, then take it back to their lairs for desecration rituals. She talked about how they would curse it and spit on it in this tone like she was talking about the Holocaust. I was amused not just at how seriously she took this - like stomping on a cracker was the same as stomping a baby - but at the image of a bunch of sullen,“Satanist” losers actually doing that stuff and thinking they were really performing some kind of terribly transgressive act. It would just be such an impotent and silly thing to do. It shouldn’t bother Catholics at all. Insulting others has an objective and subjective component to it. The fact that _we_ think a particular act _should not_ bother others isn’t really relevant, if we _know_ that it in fact _does_ bother others - and do that act _anyway_ just to spite them. It is the insulting intention that matters, not the fact that the act itself is of trifling significance. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/15 "2011-03-18T15:27:34Z")
Nobody has a right not be insulted. I disagree that they’re being insulted anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/16 "2011-03-18T15:34:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nobody has a right not be insulted. I disagree that they’re being insulted anyway. I would agree that the person doing the insulting ought not to suffer _legal_ consequences. Free speech and all that. But by the same token - they reveal themselves, essentially, as being _jerks_, for insulting people just to get attention for whatever point they are attempting to make. Clearly, religious Catholics are insulted by desecration of their holy symbols. I’m not a Catholic, but why should I disbelieve them when they _say_ they are insulted by this? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/17 "2011-03-18T15:36:36Z")
To Catholics it’s not just a cracker, just like to Muslims, the Koran isn’t just a book, to a lot of Americans, the American flag isn’t just a piece of cloth, and to me, my nephew’s picture isn’t just a piece of paper. Just because something doesn’t have an emotional value to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t have an emotional value to others, or that they won’t be upset if you do something bad to it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/18 "2011-03-18T15:54:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I would agree that the person doing the insulting ought not to suffer _legal_ consequences. Free speech and all that. > > But by the same token - they reveal themselves, essentially, as being _jerks_, for insulting people just to get attention for whatever point they are attempting to make. That’s not what Myers was doing. He was making a larger point, not singling out Catholics. He was making a point about investing mere objects with magical powere, not insulting anybody. > [@](#): > > Clearly, religious Catholics are insulted by desecration of their holy symbols. That’s their choice. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/19 "2011-03-18T15:54:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I was amused not just at how seriously she took this - like stomping on a cracker was the same as stomping a baby - but at the image of a bunch of sullen,“Satanist” losers actually doing that stuff and thinking they were really performing some kind of terribly transgressive act. It would just be such an impotent and silly thing to do. It shouldn’t bother Catholics at all. Right, because in the real world, obviously no anti-Christian would ever really take a Eucharist host just for the sake of deliberately desecrating it. Oh, wait. You can certainly debate whether this act harmed anyone, but it was certainly and without question an insult and harassment. I imagine that even the dude who did it would agree with that: Insult and harassment was, after all, the entire point of the exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/20 "2011-03-18T15:57:32Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > To Catholics it’s not just a cracker, just like to Muslims, the Koran isn’t just a book, to a lot of Americans, the American flag isn’t just a piece of cloth, and to me, my nephew’s picture isn’t just a piece of paper. Just because something doesn’t have an emotional value to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t have an emotional value to others, or that they won’t be upset if you do something bad to it. My point is that I don’t believe others are obliged to feel the same way about anything as I do, and they’re not insulktring me if they don’t. Myers didn’t vandalize a churchm, did not damage anyone else’s property, do anybody any injury, harrass anybody or discriminate anybody. All he did was fail to share a belief in magic bread. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=2)