# "Desecration" of the Eucharist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144 "2011-03-18T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/501 "2011-03-24T16:14:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I disagree with characterizing Myers’ statement as “hateful.” he was disparaging irrational thinking, not any group of people. And I disagree, for the reasons I stated at length in post 482 - but that’s a different issue. Your position, as I understand it, is clear and consistent - symbolic acts of hatred aren’t morally wrong because they physically harm no-one. I disagree with that, and I think most other people do, too. Hence the dislike or people who spout bigotry, for example. But at least, it’s consistent. **Czarcasm** is wriggling on the hook of the dilemma here, since s/he clearly thinks pissing on MLK’s grave is “wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/502 "2011-03-24T16:16:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In my opinion, behavior can only qualify as "bad’ if it does some kind of harm to other people. No, that isn’t your opinion. If it were, you wouldn’t pitch a fit when a kid wore a T-shirt with a quote from Leviticus during the National Day of Silence. The T-shirt didn’t make any threats or do any harm, so if the above were what you really thought, you would have defended it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/503 "2011-03-24T16:18:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, you just don’t get it, do you? > > **Dio** is saying that stuff - white supremacists pissing on graves - isn’t wrong. He has to take that position, because of the logic of his position on the host - that doing symbolic acts of hatred that physically harm no-one cannot be wrong. > > Do you agree or not with this position? Can doing purely symbolic acts of hatred and disrespect be morally wrong - or not? > > A simple “yes” or “no’”, please. Symbolic acts are not wrong or right, period. The actions this thread is about may seem hateful to you, but if that is the standard you wish to stand on when it comes to right and wrong, religion is hardly standing on the higher ground. All of history is filled with the disrespect religions have shown to each other and to those who don’t believe at all, and this disrespect goes on today. If taking a cracker that was freely given and using it for some other purpose than for which it was intended is seen as an act of hatred and disrespect by you, then you’ve got one hell of a set adamantium blinders on, imho. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/504 "2011-03-24T16:21:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Symbolic acts are not wrong or right, period. The actions this thread is about may seem hateful to you, but if that is the standard you wish to stand on when it comes to right and wrong, religion is hardly standing on the higher ground. All of history is filled with the disrespect religions have shown to each other and to those who don’t believe at all, and this disrespect goes on today. If taking a cracker that was freely given and using it for some other purpose than for which it was intended is seen as an act of hatred and disrespect by you, then you’ve got one hell of a set adamantium blinders on, imho. Again, “can doing purely symbolic acts of hatred and disrespect be morally wrong?” Tick one of two boxes: [Yes] [No] Nothing to do with crackers specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/505 "2011-03-24T16:23:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, that isn’t your opinion. > > If it were, you wouldn’t pitch a fit when a kid wore a T-shirt with a quote from Leviticus during the National Day of Silence. I have no memory of what you’re talking about, but the First Amendment can be restricted in schools. If the kid was wearing something disrptive, then the harm was that it was disruptive, not the sentiment _per se_. It wouldn’t matter if he was wearing it outside of school. So, yes, it IS my opinion. You have not located a contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/506 "2011-03-24T16:29:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Again, “can doing purely symbolic acts of hatred and disrespect be morally wrong?” > > Tick one of two boxes: > > [Yes] > > [No] > > Nothing to do with crackers specifically. I’m sorry, but I never was one to jump through hoops. If you aren’t satisfied with the perfectly good answer I gave you(although I admit it might have been a mite more articulate than you wished it to be), there’s not much I can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/507 "2011-03-24T16:43:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > …how were _any_ of them “hurt” by it? Their feelings, of course. Which is all the hurt that was done to Myers himself, right? Nobody actually killed him, so why was he so upset by death threats? Is it not your position that nobody should ever feel hurt by anything that anyone merely _says_? You personally would have no cause to ever be upset by anything that anyone said about you–or your family, or any larger group that you were a member of? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/508 "2011-03-24T16:46:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry, but I never was one to jump through hoops. If you aren’t satisfied with the perfectly good answer I gave you(although I admit it might have been a mite more articulate than you wished it to be), there’s not much I can do about it. In short, you do not wish to answer a perfectly simple yes or no question concerning the topic. I’ll take the challenge I set to you and answer it myself - I say “yes”. Your unwillingness to answer speaks volumes. Edit: say what you will about **Dio** , he’s never scared of where the logic of his argument leads him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/509 "2011-03-24T16:47:09Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Their feelings, of course. Which is all the hurt that was done to Myers himself, right? Myers didn’t claim to have been harmed. He was angry that a student had been abused and threatened for a naive act with no malicious intent. Myers got death threats too, but said he didn’t take them seriously. Myers claimed any personal harm, so I don’t see any relevance to your point. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/510 "2011-03-24T16:48:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In short, you do not wish to answer a perfectly simple yes or no question concerning the topic. > > I’ll take the challenge I set to you and answer it myself - I say “yes”. > > Your unwillingness to answer speaks volumes. He did answer: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Symbolic acts are not wrong or right, period. How is that not a direct answer? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/511 "2011-03-24T16:51:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He did answer: > > How is that not a direct answer? One cannot tell whether it is a “yes” or “no” to the question. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/512 "2011-03-24T16:52:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In short, you do not wish to answer a perfectly simple yes or no question concerning the topic. > > I’ll take the challenge I set to you and answer it myself - I say “yes”. > > Your unwillingness to answer speaks volumes. > > Edit: say what you will about **Dio** , he’s never scared of where the logic of his argument leads him. This is not a court of law, and you are certainly not a lawyer, so I’m going to give this “You _must_ answer “yes” or “no” only!” line all the respect it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/513 "2011-03-24T16:53:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > …religion is hardly standing on the higher ground. All of history is filled with the disrespect religions have shown to each other and to those who don’t believe at all, and this disrespect goes on today. Who has suggested otherwise? I happen to think this is a regrettable circumstance which is _made worse_ by the actions in question. A whole bunch of Catholics and Muslims who had nothing to do with the prior offenses have now been given a (or another) reason to “disrespect” atheists. What is the value in this? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Myers didn’t claim to have been harmed. He was angry that a student had been abused and threatened for a naive act with no malicious intent. And was that student _harmed_? Or were there just words? ETA: I notice you ignored the other part of that post. I don’t understand the aversion you and **Czarcasm** have here to answering simple direct questions about your own beliefs. Are you trying to communicate or not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/514 "2011-03-24T16:53:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > One cannot tell whether it is a “yes” or “no” to the question. Sorry, but one cannot help one with one’s comprehension skills. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/515 "2011-03-24T16:55:58Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Who has suggested otherwise? > > I happen to think this is a regrettable circumstance which is _made worse_ by the actions in question. A whole bunch of Catholics and Muslims who had nothing to do with the prior offenses have now been given a (or another) reason to “disrespect” atheists. What is the value in this? > > And was that student _harmed_? Or were there just words? Threats are harm. Death threats are acts of terrrism. His life was disrupted. He actually was physically assaulted at the student Union. Yes, he was harmed. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/516 "2011-03-24T16:57:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Really? Respecting other people is a _bigger problem_ in this little world of ours than _not_ respecting other people? 😃 > > I assume you extend this interesting notion to racial slurs (just words, right? Even _less_ substance to them than crackers!) If you object to someone calling other people by racial slurs, you must be the big problem - after all, people being upset by mere words is deeply irrational, right? > > Hell, a White Supremacist is a crusader for freedom when he wears a swastika and blames the n!ggers for destroying America- he’s just showing everyone that words and symbols have no magic power. Lying about Black people is a mere bagatelle. Anyone who things he’s a jerk, a troll and a bigot is the _real_ problem here! When he pisses on the graves of black people lynched in the '60s and makes a video of it, he’s a real hero. Yes they are just words. ETA he is a dick though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/517 "2011-03-24T16:57:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > One cannot tell whether it is a “yes” or “no” to the question. If “symbolic acts are not right or wrong,” then they can’t be right or wrong. Essentially he was telling you that they have no moral value one way or the other, or in other words, it was a “no.” ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/518 "2011-03-24T17:05:07Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I happen to think this is a regrettable circumstance which is _made worse_ by the actions in question. A whole bunch of Catholics and Muslims who had nothing to do with the prior offenses have now been given a (or another) reason to “disrespect” atheists. What is the value in this? Oh no the people who believe in magic crackers and magic books disrespect atheists what will do?? Laugh at them some more maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/519 "2011-03-24T17:06:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Threats are harm. Death threats are acts of terrrism. His life was disrupted. He actually was physically assaulted at the student Union. Yes, he was harmed. I wasn’t aware of the physical assault. Fine. But threats are harm? How can that be, by your logic? Mere words? How does one distinguish a terrorist threat from a merely symbolic act, like say pissing on a grave, or burning a cross? > [@martu](#): > > Oh no the people who believe in magic crackers and magic books disrespect atheists what will do?? Laugh at them some more maybe? Uh… you do realize people have been killed over these perceptions? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/520 "2011-03-24T17:07:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If “symbolic acts are not right or wrong,” then they can’t be right or wrong. Essentially he was telling you that they have no moral value one way or the other, or in other words, it was a “no.” If it’s a “no” then there is no harm in simply saying it’s a “no”, is there? Okay, assume it’s a “no”. Then, wtf is up with this? > [@](#): > > Taking a cracker is equivalent to a white supremacist pissing Martin Luther King’s grave? > When come back, bring sense of perspective. If “doing purely symbolic acts of hatred and disrespect” cannot be “morally wrong”, then what’s the difference? How can one be worse than the other, where neither can be bad, or have any moral value one way or the other? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=27)