# "Desecration" of the Eucharist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144 "2011-03-18T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/41 "2011-03-18T16:50:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How should I know? If he stole it, then he shouldn’t have stolen it. If he posed as a Catholic and took Communion, then he shouldn’t have done that either. So, assuming one of these things happened - would youy agree that it was in fact a type of harassment? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/42 "2011-03-18T16:52:55Z")
He’s anti bullshit and anti-brainwashing. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/43 "2011-03-18T16:54:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I say the Phelps don’t harrass anybody as long as they keep the required distance. I dunno. Different symbols mean different things to different people. This may be a pure “appeal to emotion” instance on my part, but let’s say that my next door neighbor drew a life size portrait of my kid and then laid it down in front of my house on the sidewalk. He then proceeds to defecate on it as I walk out to get my morning paper. My neighbor looks at me as he is wiping his bum and says, “Hey, I was just expressing myself artistically!” I would have a very difficult time using **Dio’s** method of thinking and rationalizing that he wasn’t hurting anyone in the act. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/44 "2011-03-18T16:55:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So, assuming one of these things happened - would you agree that it was in fact a type of harassment? If he broke into a church and styole of a box of hosts, that would be harrassment. If he pretended to be a Catholic in order to take communion and obtain a wafer, that would be inappropriate, but not harrassment. It would be bothering or disturbing anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/45 "2011-03-18T16:56:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He’s anti bullshit and anti-brainwashing. If he’s “anti bullshit” rather than “anti Catholic”, what’s he doing characterizing WW2 as “the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/46 "2011-03-18T16:57:38Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > I dunno. Different symbols mean different things to different people. This may be a pure “appeal to emotion” instance on my part, but let’s say that my next door neighbor drew a life size portrait of my kid and then laid it down in front of my house on the sidewalk. He then proceeds to defecate on it as I walk out to get my morning paper. My neighbor looks at me as he is wiping his bum and says, “Hey, I was just expressing myself artistically!” I would have a very difficult time using **Dio’s** method of thinking and rationalizing that he wasn’t hurting anyone in the act. This would be such a bizarre and disordered act that I would worry about the man’s mental health and thesafety of my family, but it would not even occur to me to actually be insulted by the sentiment _per se_. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/47 "2011-03-18T16:58:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I simply do not agree that he insulted them. Not sharing a belief is not an insult. So you’re saying that the people who claim that they felt offended or insulted are lying? Because that seems to be the only alternative. Either they’re telling the truth and really are insulted by his actions, in which case, he insulted them, or they’re not actually bothered by it all and are just pretending? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/48 "2011-03-18T17:01:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > So you’re saying that the people who claim that they felt offended or insulted are lying? Who knows how they think? Just because they THINK they’re being insulted doesn’t mean they really are. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/49 "2011-03-18T17:02:47Z")
What he did went well beyond not sharing a belief. He staged a demonstration and publicized it of taking actions regarding objects important to someone else’s belief. If I’m an athiest and I never give a shit about a Eucharist or a Koran, then I’m not sharing their belief. If I take a Eucharist and destroy it or take a Koran and destroy it then I’m taking deliberate actions towards objects of someone else’s belief. I’m within my rights to do so in the US, of course, but I can’t really pretend I’m doing it out of apathy towards their views. Their views are my motivation and it’s disingenuous to say otherwise. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/50 "2011-03-18T17:02:56Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If he’s “anti bullshit” rather than “anti Catholic”, what’s he doing characterizing WW2 as “the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry”? Because it’s a fact? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/51 "2011-03-18T17:03:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This would be such a bizarre and disordered act that I would worry about the man’s mental health and thesafety of my family, but it would not even occur to me to actually be insulted by the sentiment _per se_. Yeah, I created a bizarre scenario. I guess my point was that people tend to become insulted easier if the act hit them closer to home, y’know? Even if the act didn’t harass or injure them directly. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/52 "2011-03-18T17:08:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Who knows how they think? Just because they THINK they’re being insulted doesn’t mean they really are. [No TRUE Scottish Catholic would be insulted](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). Sorry, this is bullshit. Insults are subjective, and you can’t say someone who says they were insulted isn’t. Just like you can’t say someone who says they’re Christian isn’t because they don’t go to church, don’t tithe, don’t support Christian charities, don’t have a Bible in the house, etc. All it takes for an insult to be real is for someone to feel insulted. Does that mean the insult was intended? No, just like we can’t dismiss the impact of the insult, we can’t know with absolute certainty if the alleged insult-giver had the _mens rea_ which goes into an intentional attempt to offend. But playing the odds is good enough most of the time. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/53 "2011-03-18T17:12:25Z")
**Dio** , short of harming or harassing you directly, what WOULD offend you? I’m genuinely curious. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/54 "2011-03-18T17:12:42Z")
Meh, when I was catholic I always figured Jesus would be able to take care of himself. This didn’t mean that I’d throw hosts willy-nilly in the air but I’m not about to begin a 24 hour watch on the tabernacle. If someone with less then noble intentions gets ahold of one, it must be part of god’s plan and who am I to interfere with the almighty? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/55 "2011-03-18T17:14:13Z")
I’ll try and rephrase my original question/supposition: Many Catholics responded to PZ’s actions with something like this- it is an unholy act, PZ is in league with Satan (perhaps unknowingly), he will burn, etc. To me, these types of responses do not seem hypocritical. But many others responded like this- PZ is a jerk, he is disrespectful of other’s beliefs and therefore a rotten person, he shouldn’t insult such a vast number of people, etc. Assuming those who respond like this _also_ venerate people like Abraham and the many Saints who destroyed idols, graven images, and other sacred pagan objects, then they _do_ in fact seem highly hypocritical. So in my opinion, even if they _say_ that PZ is rotten for disrespecting sacred objects of others, what they really _believe_ is something more like “PZ is rotten for disrespecting that which is sacred to _me_.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/56 "2011-03-18T17:18:50Z")
Further- because many of those Saints are venerated precisely _because_ they destroyed that which was sacred to pagans, that veneration is highly relevant even if those actions took place long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/57 "2011-03-18T17:38:07Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > **Dio** , short of harming or harassing you directly, what WOULD offend you? I’m genuinely curious. I’m not really offendable. I find some things, like racist or homophobic sentiments and language distasteful and will choose to avoid it if I can, but that’s basically an aesthetic choice for me. I don’t really feel personally offended by such things. I see bigoted speech or deliberately inflammatory speech as self-discrediting. I think being offended is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/58 "2011-03-18T17:42:00Z")
“It’s just a big wooden cross; why are people so offended that I burned it?” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/59 "2011-03-18T17:43:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll try and rephrase my original question/supposition: > > Many Catholics responded to PZ’s actions with something like this- it is an unholy act, PZ is in league with Satan (perhaps unknowingly), he will burn, etc. To me, these types of responses do not seem hypocritical. > > But many others responded like this- PZ is a jerk, he is disrespectful of other’s beliefs and therefore a rotten person, he shouldn’t insult such a vast number of people, etc. Assuming those who respond like this _also_ venerate people like Abraham and the many Saints who destroyed idols, graven images, and other sacred pagan objects, then they _do_ in fact seem highly hypocritical. > > So in my opinion, even if they _say_ that PZ is rotten for disrespecting sacred objects of others, what they really _believe_ is something more like “PZ is rotten for disrespecting that which is sacred to _me_.” This is a valid point in historical terms. Of course, the false metric which been set up is whether Catholics or other Christians still do that. I woul say they don’t do it literally (they don’t physically smash idols), but a great many Christians certainly do disrespect and denigrate other religious beliefs. Especially Islam these days. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/60 "2011-03-18T17:51:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because it’s a fact? Color me still confused as to what euither that loser or Dio is talking about here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=4)